A discussion with a friend in MI about self defense.

[Andy219]

I OC, so if anybody wants to attack me regardless of size. I have to assume they are a black belt or golden gloves boxing champ. Or they think they can inflict upon me great bodily harm. So therefore I will defend myself in any way possible. As for billegerant dunk people, if I do go to a bar(which is seldom) I have 2 drinks and I leave. I also have have no problem leaving a bar or other place if I get an uncomfortable vibe from somebody there.

I'm a big guy and I OC, so like I said. Regardless of the attackers size I'm going to defend myself in anyway I deem necassary to stop teh threat to my person, becasue the said offender must know something about their skills that puts them at a distinct advantage. Like the old saying goes: God created Man, Samuel Colt made them equal.

 

[bobn911]

Because of the passage of the 'castle doctine' law in Michigan, we no longer have a duty to retreat. However it may be the best route to take to avoid the possibilty of a 'bad shoot'. Later, Bob

 

[Tactical Dave]

I was talking to a friend of mine in MI about how I just got my LTCH. He received his CCW (the MI equivalent to carry) about a week before. We were discussing the laws and I asked of a certain scenario that came up in his CCW class of the "what if" nature. My question was....If I am somewhere where I can legally carry and am doing so in a peaceful manner and some drunk a**hole wants to start a fight with me for no reason. (this has happened to me before) If he shows signs of aggression toward me, I wondered if I can draw my weapon and shoot him or do I have to fist-fight this drunk because he didn't produce a weapon on me, therefor I cannot use deadly force on him.

Our responses were different. I said just because he doesn't have a weapon on him doesn't mean he couldn't impose a lot of physical harm on me with his hands alone. Let's be realistic, people can kill with just their bare hands. I said I would show my gun (in the holster) with my hand on it and tell the drunk, "if you come any closer to me I will draw and shoot you" I didn't apply for my LTCH to not use my weapon to protect myself, and I sure as hell won't take a beating because of fear of drawing my weapon on someone who want's to start a fight for no reason.
My friend had said: "in our class the instructor told us you have to run away first and if the person pursues you, then you can draw and use your weapon" Run away???? WTF, I wouldn't.

I know every state has different laws regarding issues similar to this. As far as I concerned if ANYONE threatens you with violence you have a right to protect yourself /(people your with) from said violence. In MI they tell everyone to use your gun as the very last resort. I understand but I'm not going to run from someone. Just seems a little silly to me. I hope I never have to draw my gun on someone, but again, I'm not going to back down to some violent a**hole either.

Any specific laws on a situation like this? I know every situation is different from the next and it seems to come down to making the right decision at that exact moment. What are people's thoughts on this issue?

Drunk as in just having a good "buzz"?

Or drunk pee on a cop car with a cop in it drunk?

I worked downtown long enough to know that people that are really drunk can't really put up much of a fight let alone be able to chase after you......... good luck explaining to the cop that you felt like your life was in danger from a person that could barley stand up on his own.... unless they have a weapon............ if someone just appears to have a buzz.... then that is different. If the person can barley stand and wants to start something Id just walk away... and then see if he follows (every time I have done this they don't follow or bug someone else)..... Id have a hard time justified lethal force against a trashed drunk that was unarmed.............

 

[Tenacious1]

Another thought occurred to me. You never want to be in a fist fight while armed. I am not an expert but logic tells me there is very little that can go good for me if I end up in a tumbling brawl. 1) The threat is now on top of you. 2) Regardless of how the fight ends, normally the guy with the gun is going to have to do some explaining. 3) If you start to lose the fight, then decide you must use your weapon, the situation looks like an argument gone bad.

Just my thoughts.

 

[cedartop]

Find yourself some information on "Disparity of force", I think that's what it's called.

Read up on it and then find the Indiana statutes and combine the two.

Le Doug

This is the correct answer folks. When you get before a jury you better be able to explain why you feared for your life and make them feel it. You can't just shoot someone because you thought they were going to beat you up. (well you can, but it might not go well for you.) This question brings into play why there is so much more involved in selfdefense than just being able to shoot.

 

[Glock19Dude]

Drunk as in just having a good "buzz"?

Or drunk pee on a cop car with a cop in it drunk?

I worked downtown long enough to know that people that are really drunk can't really put up much of a fight let alone be able to chase after you......... good luck explaining to the cop that you felt like your life was in danger from a person that could barley stand up on his own.... unless they have a weapon............ if someone just appears to have a buzz.... then that is different. If the person can barley stand and wants to start something Id just walk away... and then see if he follows (every time I have done this they don't follow or bug someone else)..... Id have a hard time justified lethal force against a trashed drunk that was unarmed.............

I meant drunk as in having a good buzz. If someone was so drunk that they could barely stand I would have no problem defending myself with my bare hands. Hell, they would probably just fall over at some point.

I guess a good way to describe it would be the drunk where you can still function and you become 10ft tall and bulletproof drunk.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I sincerely advocate avoiding drunks and places likely to contain drunks while you are armed. Alcohol brings out the mindless brawler in some people. There is no reasoning with these people once they get wound up and decide that you've offended or slighted them in some way and it can be terribly tricky trying to diffuse a belligerent drunk once they've decided to make a fight of it.

These guys might just be looking for a good old fashioned drunken street fight, but you absolutely cannot allow yourself to get into a fistfight while armed. You might lose possession of your weapon and find it used against you, or an innocent.

If I were in the situation I wouldn't pay the law any concern. I would be focused on trying my hardest to think my way out of tragically cutting short the life of some 20 year old kid that had too much to drink and the alcohol has convinced him that he needs to fight strangers in the parking lot.

I am a thousand times more concerned with taking another person's life than I am with the response of the law. Regardless of the law, if I have to shoot someone I will and I will not shoot anyone unless I have to.

For me this situation is less hypothetical than I'd like. Sometimes I hate living in a college town.

 

[Sanguine Samurai]

(Assuming avoidance of this particular hypothetical situation is not an option, and you weren't jumped, and have time to react.)
I say also carry a kife! It gives you yet another option. Don't push all in (leathal force) when the outcome of shooting an unarmed drunk with a bad attitude is uncertain. Just up the ante. If the aggressor is not detoured by the sight of a slab of sharp steal. Up the ante again and draw your firearm and clearly state your intentions with said firearm. If that is not enough to stop him/abnormally aggresive, roided out, scary, drunken, shemale creature from attacking you I feel it is valid to say that person means to do serious bodily harm. Thus rest assuredly justifying your need to use what force necessary... IMHO. But, if you can safely remove yourself from the situation, by say, running away, you both get to live to play another day. And it saves you ammo!

 

[Elkrock777]

Hey look jimbo its an endangered three sheets to the wind drunkosourus dude, oh no he's comin right for us....Bang, bang. lol gotta love south park.
On the serious side you need to do everything possible to avoid the fight. Its easier ti walk (run) away with bruised ego for bein a woos than have to prove to a jury of your peers (probably not gun enthusiests) that you had no other choice. If your in public and not on your property you will probably be prosicuted. Not to mention sued by there family. That being said if there is no other choice, goin thru all that is better than bein dead.

 

[Joe Williams]

BTW, this scenario illustrates nicely the desirability of carrying a non-lethal alternative to the firearm. It just seems to scream for pepper spray. Pepper spray may fail, but it may well work, and in a situation like this the need for lethal force may not be immediate. You may take some knocks if it fails, but then you personally will have more time to evaluate whether or not there's really justification for taking a life, and you'll be able to show that deadly force truly was a last resort for you. Of course, if the guy is nine feet tall and hard as steel, taking even one punch may be a bad idea, but sure would be nice to have an option short of shooting someone. I've not carried pepper spray for years, but if nothing else this thread has caused me to reevaluate that, and to decide to buy some come payday.