5 Officers shot during drug raid

[UncleMike]

Pretty disgusting comment, but it appears not to be isolated in this thread. Who knew drug dealers were looked up to as providing a needed public service but cops are not. This thread just makes me ill.

Yup!!

 

[Thumper]

Please tell me that this is not a drug users site.The Mods should delete any account of anyone supporting illegal drugs and i mean any.This has came up before and a few said smoking pot was ok.It is not ok the crime rate is tied directly to illegal drugs.Make them legal and we will destroy ourselves just like who we are fighting.Anyone buying or using or selling illegal drugs and i dont care what type are a menace to society.Ban me if you want but it will only show that you want to add fuel to what is killing this country.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Please tell me that this is not a drug users site.The Mods should delete any account of anyone supporting illegal drugs and i mean any.This has came up before and a few said smoking pot was ok.It is not ok the crime rate is tied directly to illegal drugs.Make them legal and we will destroy ourselves just like who we are fighting.Anyone buying or using or selling illegal drugs and i dont care what type are a menace to society.Ban me if you want but it will only show that you want to add fuel to what is killing this country.

I believe you are loading too much into one thought. I am not aware of anyone particularly advocating drug use but rather at minimum believe it to fall under the Tenth Amendment (hence not a federal issue) and something that the states should not deal with, at least not in the ways they typically do, and of course there is significant disagreement with the forfeiture laws which often do not even require any proof of wrong-doing. My position is that if adults choose to engage in self-destructive behavior, that is their decision to make. If they try to bring others, particularly children, into said behavior, then they need to be deleted. If they engage in assorted criminal activities to support their habit, then that needs to be addressed sternly. If they want to kill themselves on the installment plan, then why are we bothering them other than propping up the 'War on Drugs' which has largely become a parallel to the military industrial complex of which we were warned over half a century ago. It has also invited much abuse of civil liberties, which is unacceptable.

There is a huge difference between advocating illegal activity and expressing one's opinion as to what should be regulated and/or prohibited and what should not be. You are unfairly mischaracterizing a number of people here by failing to make that distinction.

 

[IndyDave1776]

drugs are bad

I doubt that you are going to get much disagreement on that.

 

[netsecurity]

Please tell me that this is not a drug users site.The Mods should delete any account of anyone supporting illegal drugs and i mean any.This has came up before and a few said smoking pot was ok.It is not ok the crime rate is tied directly to illegal drugs.Make them legal and we will destroy ourselves just like who we are fighting.Anyone buying or using or selling illegal drugs and i dont care what type are a menace to society.Ban me if you want but it will only show that you want to add fuel to what is killing this country.

I don't think people who only smoke pot are criminals. Meth, heroin and crack, yea they are really bad, and COULD lead to crime, but I don't think it is fair at all to say that every meth user is a thief--that's like believing in arresting people for "pre-crimes". Pot prohibition is almost exaxtly like alcohol prohibition legally. In fact pot is already quasi legal in about half the states. Don't force your morality on me. I don't like to drink--drunk driving kills more people than meth, but you aren't advocating making it illegal, or sending SWAT to consiscate your alcoholic cousin's home, are you?

 

[nsheepdog]

I think if they're gonna storm a home via warrant of someone who has broken the law they should be armed against what could be waiting on the other side.

I doubt they expected the suspect to be compliant. Their job is simply to enforce the law, so they use the element of surprise and numbers to give themselves the best chance for success. It didn't work out this time.

I don't think it is a win to trade an officer's life for a drug suspect, but I have witnessed all kinds of drugs destroying individuals' lives as well as harming those around them.

RIP Chief Maloney.

Is it worth a life to stop someone from selling drugs that only drug users buy (supply and demand applies)? Definitely not.

Should police storm into someone's home with their weapons drawn over a drug offense? Probably not.

Should police be surprised if they get shot at while ramming someone's door down? No.

Only in a hostage situation, or similar, should SWAT tactics ever be used IMO. Such tactics are an escalation of the highest order of violence. There are much simpler ways to arrest someone without the risk. A SWAT team is literally a small army, using military tactics, which are not appropriate in most cases. Why couldn't they detain the guy at the market and then comb the house like everyone else has stated? I see it as total arrogance that police think they can barge into homes using such over the top ultra-aggressive tactics, and not expect to be received with aggression.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Not trolling to ban someone from doing something is to imply that someone has ownership of yourself. No one has the right to give someone power to enforce what i do with my money, body, property etc. This however dose not mean you can harm other people or property. So the cops that got shot or died got what was coming to them.

Hardly that. Those officers were doing the job that we, the people, hired them to do. They went in somewhere to enforce the laws our elected representatives have written and our elected executives have signed. If you want to express your disgust, do so against them. To say what you said is hardly fitting of anyone who isn't trolling, and your screen name makes that even more clear.

Please tell me that this is not a drug users site.The Mods should delete any account of anyone supporting illegal drugs and i mean any.This has came up before and a few said smoking pot was ok.It is not ok the crime rate is tied directly to illegal drugs.Make them legal and we will destroy ourselves just like who we are fighting.Anyone buying or using or selling illegal drugs and i dont care what type are a menace to society.Ban me if you want but it will only show that you want to add fuel to what is killing this country.

This is not a drug users' site. This is a site for Indiana gun owners. There are, however, many people, some of whom are mods, who, while we follow the law and do not use or promote the use of illicit substances, understand that the attempt to control what you're allowed to choose to put in your body (or not) is an inappropriate function of government. I am one of those people.

Now, to be crystal clear on this point: I do not smoke or otherwise use tobacco. I do not drink alcoholic drinks. I don't even like taking an ibuprofen when I have a headache. I have never used illegal drugs myself, and have only gotten a "contact high" a couple of times at concerts.

Were the laws to change tomorrow and ALL drugs made 100% decriminalized, the above would not change. I still would not use them. I like being in control of myself, not having some chemical in control of me.

You say that the crime rates are tied directly to illegal drugs. You're right, but you're addressing the wrong part of the equation. In the 1920s, alcohol was the illegal drug, and crime rates surrounding that drug were sky-high. When it was again made legal, the crime rates dropped. That there is still crime surrounding the use of alcohol is a direct result of there still being laws criminalizing the possession of it by some people and use of it by others.
We have no laws criminalizing the use of, say, Benadryl, an antihistamine. You can walk into WalMart and buy a package of it, or several; indeed, as many as you have money to purchase, and you can take as much as you like. If you do so and then drive, you can still be arrested for driving while impaired (or reckless driving, whichever is more applicable) and you'll still be responsible for any damage you cause while asleep at the wheel.

Should those substances be decriminalized, sure, we'd see more use of them, briefly. Then people would get over the novelty of it and it would normalize. We wouldn't have the criminal element stealing to buy pot, they could walk into Walmart and buy it... just like they can alcohol and tobacco and a world of other drugs.

What's killing this country has nothing at all to do with what substances government, in their magnanimity, choose to allow us to use. What's killing this country is the idea that government has any place telling us how to live our lives or in any way exceeding their Constitutional limitations, and worse, us allowing them to do so.

To the families of the officers who lost their lives doing their jobs, I send my condolences. For the officers themselves, I offer my prayers.

For the officers who still put on the uniform and uphold their oaths of office with honor and integrity, you have my thanks and respect.

Stay safe out there.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[lrahm]

I don't think people who only smoke pot are criminals. Meth, heroin and crack, yea they are really bad, and COULD lead to crime, but I don't think it is fair at all to say that every meth user is a thief--that's like believing in arresting people for "pre-crimes". Pot prohibition is almost exaxtly like alcohol prohibition legally. In fact pot is already quasi legal in about half the states. Don't force your morality on me. I don't like to drink--drunk driving kills more people than meth, but you aren't advocating making it illegal, or sending SWAT to consiscate your alcoholic cousin's home, are you?

I haven't met a meth user that wasn't a thief. It's okay to say that you don't have much experience when it comes to drugs or its' culture. It's an extreemly addictive drug with physically damaging side effects. It's not a casual drug that you can stop by choice.

Pot has been de-criminalized in many states but even here after a conviction a second possession (for a mere joint) is a felony. You litterly go from a ticket the first time to a jail sentence the second. After years of obscurity, LSD is making a comeback. PCP and marihauna is still around.

I don't mean to stand on my soap box but it has become a huge problem here. Most all empty houses are sites for meth cooks. Cooks while driving in your car is a common ordeal. We get call after call to search areas for the smell of of odors. Most common citizens here know what to look for and are very helpful. Drugs are and will continue to be on the front burner.

 

[lrahm]

Hardly that. Those officers were doing the job that we, the people, hired them to do. They went in somewhere to enforce the laws our elected representatives have written and our elected executives have signed. If you want to express your disgust, do so against them. To say what you said is hardly fitting of anyone who isn't trolling, and your screen name makes that even more clear.



This is not a drug users' site. This is a site for Indiana gun owners. There are, however, many people, some of whom are mods, who, while we follow the law and do not use or promote the use of illicit substances, understand that the attempt to control what you're allowed to choose to put in your body (or not) is an inappropriate function of government. I am one of those people.

Now, to be crystal clear on this point: I do not smoke or otherwise use tobacco. I do not drink alcoholic drinks. I don't even like taking an ibuprofen when I have a headache. I have never used illegal drugs myself, and have only gotten a "contact high" a couple of times at concerts.

Were the laws to change tomorrow and ALL drugs made 100% decriminalized, the above would not change. I still would not use them. I like being in control of myself, not having some chemical in control of me.

You say that the crime rates are tied directly to illegal drugs. You're right, but you're addressing the wrong part of the equation. In the 1920s, alcohol was the illegal drug, and crime rates surrounding that drug were sky-high. When it was again made legal, the crime rates dropped. That there is still crime surrounding the use of alcohol is a direct result of there still being laws criminalizing the possession of it by some people and use of it by others.
We have no laws criminalizing the use of, say, Benadryl, an antihistamine. You can walk into WalMart and buy a package of it, or several; indeed, as many as you have money to purchase, and you can take as much as you like. If you do so and then drive, you can still be arrested for driving while impaired (or reckless driving, whichever is more applicable) and you'll still be responsible for any damage you cause while asleep at the wheel.

Should those substances be decriminalized, sure, we'd see more use of them, briefly. Then people would get over the novelty of it and it would normalize. We wouldn't have the criminal element stealing to buy pot, they could walk into Walmart and buy it... just like they can alcohol and tobacco and a world of other drugs.

What's killing this country has nothing at all to do with what substances government, in their magnanimity, choose to allow us to use. What's killing this country is the idea that government has any place telling us how to live our lives or in any way exceeding their Constitutional limitations, and worse, us allowing them to do so.

To the families of the officers who lost their lives doing their jobs, I send my condolences. For the officers themselves, I offer my prayers.

For the officers who still put on the uniform and uphold their oaths of office with honor and integrity, you have my thanks and respect.

Stay safe out there.

Blessings,
Bill

I do think that Bill has sumed it all up. It is sad for any community to lose a person whose sole purpose is to protect the lives of its' citizens. Like them or not, may he rest in peace. Thanks Bill.

 

[UncleMike]

Not trolling to ban someone from doing something is to imply that someone has ownership of yourself. No one has the right to give someone power to enforce what i do with my money, body, property etc. This however dose not mean you can harm other people or property. So the cops that got shot or died got what was coming to them.

Hardly that. Those officers were doing the job that we, the people, hired them to do. They went in somewhere to enforce the laws our elected representatives have written and our elected executives have signed. If you want to express your disgust, do so against them. To say what you said is hardly fitting of anyone who isn't trolling, and your screen name makes that even more clear.



This is not a drug users' site. This is a site for Indiana gun owners. There are, however, many people, some of whom are mods, who, while we follow the law and do not use or promote the use of illicit substances, understand that the attempt to control what you're allowed to choose to put in your body (or not) is an inappropriate function of government. I am one of those people.

Now, to be crystal clear on this point: I do not smoke or otherwise use tobacco. I do not drink alcoholic drinks. I don't even like taking an ibuprofen when I have a headache. I have never used illegal drugs myself, and have only gotten a "contact high" a couple of times at concerts.

Were the laws to change tomorrow and ALL drugs made 100% decriminalized, the above would not change. I still would not use them. I like being in control of myself, not having some chemical in control of me.

You say that the crime rates are tied directly to illegal drugs. You're right, but you're addressing the wrong part of the equation. In the 1920s, alcohol was the illegal drug, and crime rates surrounding that drug were sky-high. When it was again made legal, the crime rates dropped. That there is still crime surrounding the use of alcohol is a direct result of there still being laws criminalizing the possession of it by some people and use of it by others.
We have no laws criminalizing the use of, say, Benadryl, an antihistamine. You can walk into WalMart and buy a package of it, or several; indeed, as many as you have money to purchase, and you can take as much as you like. If you do so and then drive, you can still be arrested for driving while impaired (or reckless driving, whichever is more applicable) and you'll still be responsible for any damage you cause while asleep at the wheel.

Should those substances be decriminalized, sure, we'd see more use of them, briefly. Then people would get over the novelty of it and it would normalize. We wouldn't have the criminal element stealing to buy pot, they could walk into Walmart and buy it... just like they can alcohol and tobacco and a world of other drugs.

What's killing this country has nothing at all to do with what substances government, in their magnanimity, choose to allow us to use. What's killing this country is the idea that government has any place telling us how to live our lives or in any way exceeding their Constitutional limitations, and worse, us allowing them to do so.

To the families of the officers who lost their lives doing their jobs, I send my condolences. For the officers themselves, I offer my prayers.

For the officers who still put on the uniform and uphold their oaths of office with honor and integrity, you have my thanks and respect.

Stay safe out there.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[radonc73]

Please tell me that this is not a drug users site.The Mods should delete any account of anyone supporting illegal drugs and i mean any.This has came up before and a few said smoking pot was ok.It is not ok the crime rate is tied directly to illegal drugs.Make them legal and we will destroy ourselves just like who we are fighting.Anyone buying or using or selling illegal drugs and i dont care what type are a menace to society.Ban me if you want but it will only show that you want to add fuel to what is killing this country.

I agree, we should then continue to people who drink or own bars and liquer stores. Then move to tobacco all those who chew and smoke. Then we can move on to those who do not eat healthy enough, then well then we will not have many left here.
So what you are saying that if we legalized drugs the crimerate would drop? Is it really a fight when only one side is the agressor? Do drug dealers bust down the doors armed and take cops from their families for years? I do not do smoke weed anymore and have never sold it but then again this is not an anti-drug site either is it.

 

[lrahm]

I have no problem with what Bill stated at all. This particular thread was to inform us of the tragic loss of an officer and the severe wounding of at least three more. The department was only 7 strong.

The problem that I have with the part that was added to this thread wa the drugs. Not whether it should be legalized or not but to the people who suffer. Point in fact, for every hotel room that serves as a "meth cook" host will have to be stripped because of the damages due to chemicals introduced to the area. Bed covers, carpet even wall board will have to be replaced to make it habital for the next group that rents the room. What happens to the children who are also present. What happens to the lungs of the children since mom and dad are wearing masks and the children aren't. What happens to the children who are present during the "contact high" that Bill stated.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Hardly that. Those officers were doing the job that we, the people, hired them to do...

To the families of the officers who lost their lives doing their jobs, I send my condolences. For the officers themselves, I offer my prayers.

For the officers who still put on the uniform and uphold their oaths of office with honor and integrity, you have my thanks and respect.

Stay safe out there.

Blessings,
Bill

Although I chose to edit for brevity, the entire post was a most excellent explanation of a significant collection of truths. Very well said!

 

[lrahm]

I was thinking about posting a picture of the results of a lab gone wrong. I chose not to because of it being too graphic. It showed a man with most of his clothes blown off after an explosion during a "meth cook". He is still alive and doing well. The power of the blast blew out the walls of the house. One "one-pot" has the explosive power of C-4. We had occasion to make a run on a house that had 100 going at one time. Seeing children who are malnurished or not thriving is a common pattern with hard core drug users. We also had a child two weeks ago that was two months old and weighed 6.5 pounds. Confined in its' own body fluids. It went to the hospital and was removed from the family.

Please, don't preach to me about casual use and hardcore. I think I know the difference.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I was thinking about posting a picture of the results of a lab gone wrong. I chose not to because of it being too graphic. It showed a man with most of his clothes blown off after an explosion during a "meth cook". He is still alive and doing well. The power of the blast blew out the walls of the house. One "one-pot" has the explosive power of C-4. We had occasion to make a run on a house that had 100 going at one time. Seeing children who are malnurished or not thriving is a common pattern with hard core drug users. We also had a child two weeks ago that was two months old and weighed 6.5 pounds. Confined in its' own body fluids. It went to the hospital and was removed from the family.

Please, don't preach to me about casual use and hardcore. I think I know the difference.

I, for one, am certainly not advocating drug use, but feel that it is the entirely wrong approach and fail to see the authority to interfere with those who voluntarily self-destruct. I agree with your feelings on the issue at a personal and practical level so far as condemning the entire situation. With the above-mentioned situation, it appears that there is a bushel basket full of crimes not directly pertaining to the act of manufacturing, possessing, or using drugs. The drugs are the common denominator, but still there is plenty to work with even if hypothetically the drug manufacture/use were perfectly legal.

The children, as usual, will generate the majority of the concern from the rest of us. Having people in CPS who do not need taken out back and shot is a good start. I am not familiar with those local to you, but I have seen far too many instances of clear abuse being overlooked while well-meaning parents were run through the mill. The difference generally is found on those who are not being protected being on the wrong side of the tracks. That needs to change. Then again, this is parallel with my general view of the criminal (in)justice system in which the easy and lucrative are badgered ruthlessly and the truly dangerous who do not offer meaningful rewards are ignored. Please do not take this personal. My expectation is that those persons who encorage me toward disdainful feelings are not likely to be found here!

 

[Dead Duck]

This message is hidden because ocsdor is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because sgtonory is on your ignore list.

I agree, we should then continue to people who drink or own bars and liquer stores. Then move to tobacco all those who chew and smoke. Then we can move on to those who do not eat healthy enough, then well then we will not have many left here.

I would proudly be left!

BTW - It's safe to say that every meth user is defiantly a thief, a loser and barely sub-human not to mention - week minded. Probably just a few ingredients short of a Zombie, although I wouldn't want to compare the two because I don't want to insult Zombies.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I have no problem with what Bill stated at all. This particular thread was to inform us of the tragic loss of an officer and the severe wounding of at least three more. The department was only 7 strong.

The problem that I have with the part that was added to this thread wa the drugs. Not whether it should be legalized or not but to the people who suffer. Point in fact, for every hotel room that serves as a "meth cook" host will have to be stripped because of the damages due to chemicals introduced to the area. Bed covers, carpet even wall board will have to be replaced to make it habital for the next group that rents the room. What happens to the children who are also present. What happens to the lungs of the children since mom and dad are wearing masks and the children aren't. What happens to the children who are present during the "contact high" that Bill stated.

Conversely, when it's legal and manufactured commercially, how many people will choose to take all the risks that go along with cooking it when they can walk in to WM and buy it? I get what you mean, I just think that that problem would go away with better quality and lower cost, not to mention no risk of legal complications.

The children are in a rough position with no exit as it is, and LEOs are almost in a position almost as bad, what with having to go in. Repeal laws against the possession of things and y'all will only have actual crimes that actually hurt people to deal with. (That's not to say the cook in the pic you didn't post wasn't hurt, nor that the children weren't, but I've already touched on how to end those injuries.) Someone driving on meth or coke or whatever would be dealt with the same as someone driving while drinking because of the risk s/he creates. Someone who robs a convenience store to get money to *buy* drugs would be dealt with like any other thief.

We're never, ever going to have a crime-free society. LEOs have absolute job security. I think it's long past time we stopped trying to find new ways to keep y'all busy and stopped looking to find ways to waste money. (such as on all the paramilitary paraphernalia.) Let's stop putting cops at risk because someone happened to have a plant or bought a little vial of powder that someone decided was bad and we needed to be protected from ourselves and our own perceived stupidity. Let's get rid of idiotic mala prohibita laws that only serve to create the threats that kill our cops and our children. You want to create something for gov't to do that won't put people at risk? SHOW some of those pics you described. Launch a public awareness campaign and educate people. Don't just tell them it's against some law, show them WHY the drugs are a risk and what can happen. I don't mean a sterilized version, either. Show them the dead bodies with needles still in their arms. Show them the 75% 2nd- and 3rd degree burns. Show them the explosions that happen and all the dirty little things that only we who've been there ever see. Show them the funerals and the anonymous end to which so many go... cheap coffins in potter's field... if there's enough of them left to bury... and/or the children who go to bed each night wishing they still (or ever) had a Mommy or a Daddy to tuck them in. That's how you minimize drug use... You show people what will happen, sooner or later, to so many, and you understand that there will still be some who think it won't happen to them.

I'd be very happy to never have to stand by for an ISP meth lab team again.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[lrahm]

This was taken by a bystander shortly after an explosion in his home. The meth cook did not go well. The pictures after he got out of the hospital were worse. It was also printen in the Courier & Press. Notice that most of the clothes and shoes were burned off.

 

[UncleMike]

This was taken by a bystander shortly after an explosion in his home. The meth cook did not go well. The pictures after he got out of the hospital were worse. It was also printen in the Courier & Press. Notice that most of the clothes and shoes were burned off.

The FOOL is lucky to have survived.

 

[lrahm]

The FOOL is lucky to have survived.

He will still probably have to worry about infections for the rest of his life. Was it worth it?