45 auto double charge results

[rvb]

glad you had no injuries.

that setback is very interesting.... I've never seen that before where the bullets in the mag are pushed back like that (not that I've seen a lot of double-charge results, in person or in photos). Do the cases have enough tension on the bullets? Could it have been setback that caused the over-pressure, not a double?

certainly if you de-primed a small-primer case, removed it, then deprimed a large-primer case and reprimed, w/o emptying the case in station 2, you could have doubled.

Just to hopefully add something for the 550 users, I've loaded somewhere around 150k on my 550 over the last 8 yrs or so. I've yet to have a double or squib (or really any problem). Not to say "it can't happen to me," because it can and I could have a bad round boxed up right now waiting to be fired, but the method that has proven me well to date is I 1) Look in the case in station 3 to make sure the powder level looks appropriate, 2) set the bullet on top of the case in station 3, and 3) pull the handle. If anything interrupts that "look/set/pull" process, I reset, make sure everything is in order, then start over. I have caught a couple of potential oopses when step 1 didn't look right (ie too much or no powder). Everything else (eg putting a new case in station 1, indexing, grabbing a new bullet) is just "extra" steps that have to be done before doing those 3 main steps. This is not a slow process; I can still comfortably do 100 rounds in 10 min.

the other thing I do that is OCD is I count the primers as I pick them up and ensure I have 100 (just count to 10 repeatedly, actually). Once loaded, I put the rounds in dillon ammo boxes and ensure I ended up w/ an exact multiple of 100 rounds (if not, then there's a chance I double-cycled w/o indexing or putting in a new case). I use this opportunity to ensure primers are fully seated and right-side up. Note this wouldn't have caught your issue since you still used the correct number of primers.

When I first started I would just crank out ammo w/o looking in the case for the correct powder charge. I still have a few boxes of that old ammo around I've been using up, and it makes me a touch nervous knowing I was a bit more careless back in the day....

-rvb

 

[in625shooter]

Just asking because I didn't notice it being mentioned/asked. Was the brass yours or did you pick it up off the range? The reason I ask is it appears like you might have had some Glock brass that has that bulge. They seem to cause similar issues for hand loaders if 1. they don't resize them or 2. they try to get too many reloads out of the brass. They will only be able to be resized so many times (I trashed mine after 3 firings including factory) before they got too weak.

 

[JRPLANE]

I use a 550b and have loaded 100k at least, the best I have done is buy a very bright flexible head desk lamp, one that can be position very close to position 3 on the press. This bright light makes it very to see into the case as you set the bullet on it. I shoot a lot of titegroup in a .45acp, 4.5 grs isn't much in the bottom of that fat case. I have purposely double charged just to see how noticeable it is with the bright light in place. The double show up well. I will never load without my bright light!!!! $10-$15 bucks well worth it.

 

[mac45]

Thanks for posting.
Glad you and the gun are OK.

 

[iChokePeople]

I would think rvb's suggestion is best, but to the poster who asked about whether the powder check would work on a 550, it's really a pretty simple device. As designed, you need a hole next to the die hole in the toolhead for a rod that goes down and makes contact with the shellplate as you lift it -- that lifts the body of the powder check up, essentially "turning it on" (bringing the working contact into play, really) -- that would be easy to rig, if the 550 head doesn't have that hole. You could make a bracket that goes around the toolhead, for example.

Doesn't seem like it would be difficult, given all of the things people engineer for the presses.

ETA: This hole. The 550 heads I see on the web don't have it, but I still think it would be pretty easy to fab something to make it work.

 

[hammer24]

glad you had no injuries.

that setback is very interesting.... I've never seen that before where the bullets in the mag are pushed back like that (not that I've seen a lot of double-charge results, in person or in photos). Do the cases have enough tension on the bullets? Could it have been setback that caused the over-pressure, not a double?

-rvb

This was exactly my first impression after seeing the photos of the other rounds. My first thing to test would be the neck tension/ crimp on your other rounds to see if you can artificially create setback by pressing the bullet tip firmly on a table top and remeasuring OAL.

 

[Leo]

I am happey to hear the the original poster was not injured.

I cannot understand the 550B to be "an overcharge magnet" It does not auto advance, you have to push it to the next station. The 3rd station is the bullet seater, the second is the powder dump station. When you raise the shell plate up to receive powder, it is also seating a bullet. How can you set a bullet onto a case that already has a bullet in it? I know with certainty that you cannot set two bullets on a .45 case and get the shell plate high enough to make a second powder dump. Maybe if someone was only loading one cartridge at a time?

I bought my 1st 550b shortly after the offered it as an updated version of the 450. That had to be the 1980's/early 90's. I am told the new style powder throw has an extra linkage that makes it impossible to double throw powder. All my measures were the old style without that linkage. I would have to think long and hard to figure out how a double charge could be made, even with the old one.

I cannot estimate how many rounds I loaded between the two 550 Dillions over the years, but I assure you, it was 10's of thousands per year. I wouldn't even take the pillow case off the press if I didn't have at least 500 bullets. Never had a double charge.

 

[Grelber]

This was exactly my first impression after seeing the photos of the other rounds. My first thing to test would be the neck tension/ crimp on your other rounds to see if you can artificially create setback by pressing the bullet tip firmly on a table top and remeasuring OAL.

I worry about the neck tension stuff too, a book I liked ("The Glock in Competition" if memory serves) advised always crimping a little bit more than you think you need to. Right or wrong I took that advice.
In this case, there was a lot of blackish smoke, besides the good bit of residue that the o.p. noted was on his hands.
Not that I know what the heck a double charge should look like, but it just seemed like a lot of powder was involved. For what it is worth.

 

[Leo]

I am happey to hear the the original poster was not injured.

I cannot understand the 550B to be "an overcharge magnet" It does not auto advance, you have to push it to the next station. The 3rd station is the bullet seater, the second is the powder dump station. When you raise the shell plate up to receive powder, it is also seating a bullet. How can you set a bullet onto a case that already has a bullet in it? I know with certainty that you cannot set two bullets on a .45 case and get the shell plate high enough to make a second powder dump.

I bought my 1st 550b shortly after the offered it as an updated version of the 450. That had to be the 1980's/early 90's. I am told the new style powder throw has an extra linkage that makes it impossible to double throw powder. All my measures were the old style without that linkage. I would have to think long and hard to figure out how a double charge could be made, even with the old one.

I cannot estimate how many rounds I loaded between the two 550 Dillions over the years, but I assure you, it was 10's of thousands per year. Never had a double charge.

 

[iChokePeople]

I worry about the neck tension stuff too, a book I liked ("The Glock in Competition" if memory serves) advised always crimping a little bit more than you think you need to. Right or wrong I took that advice.

Any of you reloading gurus care to comment on that? Like I said, I'm a n00b to reloading, and I've read the opposite -- to crimp as little as possible to get rid of your bell/expansion. Expert opinions?

 

[rvb]

I am happey to hear the the original poster was not injured.

I cannot understand the 550B to be "an overcharge magnet" It does not auto advance, you have to push it to the next station. The 3rd station is the bullet seater, the second is the powder dump station. When you raise the shell plate up to receive powder, it is also seating a bullet. How can you set a bullet onto a case that already has a bullet in it? I know with certainty that you cannot set two bullets on a .45 case and get the shell plate high enough to make a second powder dump. Maybe if someone was only loading one cartridge at a time?

I bought my 1st 550b shortly after the offered it as an updated version of the 450. That had to be the 1980's/early 90's. I am told the new style powder throw has an extra linkage that makes it impossible to double throw powder. All my measures were the old style without that linkage. I would have to think long and hard to figure out how a double charge could be made, even with the old one.

I cannot estimate how many rounds I loaded between the two 550 Dillions over the years, but I assure you, it was 10's of thousands per year. I wouldn't even take the pillow case off the press if I didn't have at least 500 bullets. Never had a double charge.

The problem, quite simply, occurs when people pull the handle twice w/o turning the shell plate. Often, it's because of a problem in station 1. So after they pull the handle (powder dumps in 2, bullet seated in 3), then maybe they crunch a primer sideways in 1... so they clear the jam in station 1, put in a new piece of brass, pull the handle to size/prime, and ooops! now there are two charges of powder in 2.

I can certainly see HOW it happens.

Like you, I also think the issue is over-sold, and too many people are steered away from the 550, when just a little care and a proper process (as I described above) can keep things working smoothly w/o incident. Regardless of the press, anytime something goes or feels wrong, you have to stop, solve the problem, and make sure everything is set/reset before just jumping back into cranking the handle. In these cases all that's needed is to remove the case from station 2, fix the problem in station 1, and then put the case from 2 back in the pipeline.

I always comment that if a mechanical auto-index is so great, then why do I need a powder alarm to go with it?

The fail-safe powder rod is a great improvement, imo. What it prevents is a squib, not a double. It prevents the powder bar from getting stuck out and not returning for another charge. It also ensures the bar returns FULLY home and can't get stuck slightly short.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

I worry about the neck tension stuff too, a book I liked ("The Glock in Competition" if memory serves) advised always crimping a little bit more than you think you need to.

Any of you reloading gurus care to comment on that? Like I said, I'm a n00b to reloading, and I've read the opposite -- to crimp as little as possible to get rid of your bell/expansion. Expert opinions?

not an 'expert,' but I'll chime in...

I think proper bullet tension in an an autoloading cartridge comes from the sizing die. As you say, in a .45/9mm/etc the "crimp" should just remove the bell. Too much crimp can actually reduce how tightly the case holds the bullet by causing the case to buldge out below the case mouth.

If there is not enough case tension, it is probably from 1) too much crimp, 2) undersized bullet, or 3) sizing die not sizing enough. You can get the latter if the brass doesn't "retain" its resized shape enough (eg brass-coated steel).

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ugh_crimp_or_learning_to_reload_part_1_a.html

-rvb

 

[rvb]

My first thing to test would be the neck tension/ crimp on your other rounds to see if you can artificially create setback by pressing the bullet tip firmly on a table top and remeasuring OAL.

Or just put a couple in a magazine and chamber them a couple times each; see what is really happening in the gun.

-rvb

 

[bwframe]

I don't use a powder check for .45acp, but I visually check each case prior to placing the bullet. I set up my press and lighting with this in mind.
This is what I see:

!!!OH look, second one is a double charge (that I had to create from the next case in line.) It's quite obvious, but not something I have ever seen in +/-25000 rounds loaded on the 650.

Note - It doesn't appear that there is room for the bullet with a double charge of 4.5gr of Clays?

 

[rvb]

!!!OH look, second one is a double charge

Thanks for the visual. That's exactly what I'm talking about. A glance in the case will reveal a squib or double real quick. I think once on my 550 I saw an oops before setting the bullet down, it was one of those deals where everthing was going wrong... a primer had jammed, I needed to refill the powder hopper, I ran out of beer, etc ..... but I caught it!

"look/set/pull"

-rvb

 

[praff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvb
glad you had no injuries.

that setback is very interesting.... I've never seen that before where the bullets in the mag are pushed back like that (not that I've seen a lot of double-charge results, in person or in photos). Do the cases have enough tension on the bullets? Could it have been setback that caused the over-pressure, not a double?

-rvb

This was exactly my first impression after seeing the photos of the other rounds. My first thing to test would be the neck tension/ crimp on your other rounds to see if you can artificially create setback by pressing the bullet tip firmly on a table top and remeasuring OAL.


I thought that could be the issue as well, but the neck tension on my bullets is good. I always load a dummy round or two and drop em on the concrete floor to see if there is any setback. There never is the way I adjust my crimp. I also checked the loaded ammo when I got home to see what kinda tension I have on the bullets and it checked out ok. I really think that there just was enough force to push the bullets back in the case when the gun fired.....um i mean exploded. The three rounds I found all had progressively less setback in them. I am gonna assume the one that was pushed all the way back was the next round in the mag, the intermediate one was next and the final one is the one that is lodged in the bottom of the mag.

 

[rvb]

I always load a dummy round or two and drop em on the concrete floor

That sounds scientific.

I would think even a round w/ poor case tension would pass that test. (I'm thinking about how it usually takes multiple blows w/ an inertia bullet puller/hammer on concrete to pull a bullet... not a lot of inertia there.)

You may well be right, esp considering you think you remember screwing up on the press, but regardless I'd find a better way to check case tension...



-rvb

 

[DIRTROAD]

Just lets us know where not playing with toys really have to be award of what is going on , glad it turned out ok as well as it did

 

[praff]

That sounds scientific.

I would think even a round w/ poor case tension would pass that test. (I'm thinking about how it usually takes multiple blows w/ an inertia bullet puller/hammer on concrete to pull a bullet... not a lot of inertia there.)

You may well be right, esp considering you think you remember screwing up on the press, but regardless I'd find a better way to check case tension...



-rvb

Ok...that was a little over simplified, but what I am saying is that i do some experimenting with pushing on the bullet, dropping the bullet, then measure COAL and pull the bullet and inspect the indentation of said bullet. The difference between a non-crimped bullet with very little neck tension and a crimped bullet with more neck tension is easy to tell. Those rounds get pulled (an objective test on how much force it takes to pull the bullet be it an inirtial puller or collet style). Also the indentation or lack there of in the bullet itself is examined. Hopefully that explains my crimp setting a little better.

Point is that bullet setback WAS NOT the issue here.

 

[praff]

Just asking because I didn't notice it being mentioned/asked. Was the brass yours or did you pick it up off the range? The reason I ask is it appears like you might have had some Glock brass that has that bulge. They seem to cause similar issues for hand loaders if 1. they don't resize them or 2. they try to get too many reloads out of the brass. They will only be able to be resized so many times (I trashed mine after 3 firings including factory) before they got too weak.

The brass from this batch was a mix of 2x fired starline and winchester (mostly starline). It is hard to see from the pics, but it is obvious that the belling of the case perfectly lines up with the unsupported chamber section of the barrel where it was throated. And before anyone asks... no i didn't take a dremel to the chamber to throat or polish. This pistol was exactly the way it came from les baer with zero modifications.