.223 bullet with .308 penetration????

[jworm1420]

I was watching an FPS russia segment about his three guns he would have in an apoctolyptic situation, whether zombie, government collapse, etc. He chose a remmington 12 guage, an AK and a .308 bolt action. i have a a 12 gauge and a AR. Im thinking about getting a bolt gun, but it showed a .308 round going through some cinderblock and hitting his target. My question is, is ther any .223 ammo that could also do the same thing? I know the obvious difference is the size of the projectile that a .308 throws is larger than a .223. Just wondering if there is any ballistic tip or anything like that that could do the potential damage, obviously not the same, in a .223 caliber. Also i always get it mixed up, i can shoot a .223 round out of a 5.56 chamber but not a 62gr 5.56 milsurp green tip round out of a .223 bolt gun corrct? Thanks guys much appreciated

 

[chuddly]

you shouldn't shoot a 5.56 out of a .223...correct. To answer your question really there isn't much that can be done for it other than the "green tip" steel core bullets. Those are going to give you the best penetration possible other than going full on armor piercing. Your really just not going to get the penetration power out of a round that wasn't made for it.

 

[jworm1420]

Ok thanks for the info. Ok heres kind of a dumb question. I buy milsurp 5.56 ammo,and shoot it out of my 5.56 chambered AR. Then i take that brass and reload to .223 specs. Trim cases, seat bullet, etc to .223 specs. That wouldnt be a problem shooting out of a .223 bolt gun would it??? Tahnks again

 

[peberly400]

300 blackout

 

[SolubleSpork]

Ok thanks for the info. Ok heres kind of a dumb question. I buy milsurp 5.56 ammo,and shoot it out of my 5.56 chambered AR. Then i take that brass and reload to .223 specs. Trim cases, seat bullet, etc to .223 specs. That wouldnt be a problem shooting out of a .223 bolt gun would it??? Tahnks again

No, the 5.56 brass is rated for higher pressure ratings than .223 and if you load down a 5.56 to a .223, I don't see any reason there would be a problem shooting in the .223 bolt gun.

 

[NathanJefferson]

you shouldn't shoot a 5.56 out of a .223...

Be sure to check on your specific gun via the manufacturer. Many (most?) modern firearms in .223 can safely shoot 5.56 military rounds.

 

[chuddly]

No, the 5.56 brass is rated for higher pressure ratings than .223 and if you load down a 5.56 to a .223, I don't see any reason there would be a problem shooting in the .223 bolt gun.

yes and no.....The trimming is also key there. The neck length is slightly different on the 5.56 vs the .223 so if you trim and then load to .223 specks then you will be fine in a .223 bolt gun (assuming you also full length size the brass).

Also 300 blackout is not fully the answer either. I watched a comparison of the 300 blackout , the 7.62x 39 , and the 5.56. They all expected the 300 blackout to act much like the AK round and it did in most test. BUT in the penetration test is didnt. It was about mid way between the 5.56 and the 7.62 rounds in penetration. And we all know that the AK round is not as strong as the 308. I was thinking about building a blackout rifle .....that review sure made me second guess it with the amount of drop it has and the lack of penetration i just dont know anymore.

 

[dukeboy_318]

No, the 5.56 brass is rated for higher pressure ratings than .223 and if you load down a 5.56 to a .223, I don't see any reason there would be a problem shooting in the .223 bolt gun.

Wrong, the only differences in the brass is that 5.56 brass has a long throat by design, which yields higher pressures than the SAMMI specs for .223.

223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide

 

[45calibre]

the new 5.56 m855a1 "green" ammo can penetrate better than 7.62 nato. there is a vid of it online penetrating a steel plate that a 7.62 nato can not

 

[NathanJefferson]

the new 5.56 m855a1 "green" ammo can penetrate better than 7.62 nato. there is a vid of it online penetrating a steel plate that a 7.62 nato can not

If you can find that in the civilian market I'd love to know where. You can find the standard green tips all over, but that isn't the 'new' stuff you are referring to.

 

[jworm1420]

Thanks to all for there specific opinion. I appreciate the input as im not very knowlegable in terms of ballistics. You all have made valid points and have giving me a lot of diferent things to think about. Thats why i like this site so much, theres so much info u can learn from very knowledgable people. Thanks again.

 

[Cat-Herder]

the new 5.56 m855a1 "green" ammo can penetrate better than 7.62 nato. there is a vid of it online penetrating a steel plate that a 7.62 nato can not

Here's a glowing review of the m855a1.

M855A1: Are Soldiers and Marines Being Sold Out? - Guns & Ammo

 

[jworm1420]

Thats good to know. I was refering to the "old" green tip, thats available almost anywhere, but i didnt know about this new stuff. So il be sure to stay away from it though after reading that article.

 

[45calibre]

i have seen it on occasion for sale but it carries a premium price, its been a while. a few months ago there was a link here for it. i think that was it or it might have been the SOST 5.56

 

[ckcollins2003]

The .308 does have a lot of drop, but that's because it's a heavy bullet. Shot out of a .223 case it doesn't have the capacity to fire out as fast as the .308 casing, but it will still do everything you need it to in a real world situation. Even the 110-125gr .308 projectiles are almost twice as much mass as the .224 projectiles that are usually found in mil-surp ammo.

Travis Haley did a video where he shot the .300 blackout at 750 meters with a 10" suppressed upper and subsonic rounds. In reality, a .308 isn't a long range round either, but it sure packs one hell of a punch and the .300 blackout will do the same.

Different strokes for different folks, but people shouldn't underestimate the .300 blackout. If I were to build an AR platform rifle for shooting through concrete blocks to hit a target, I'd pick the .300 blackout over the .223 all day.

Here's a video of both against a concrete block. The .300 blackout round is also polymer tip, either an A-MAX or a V-MAX which is used for hunting and expansion rather than penetration.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18NlKr2ESQM[/ame]

And here's Travis Haley on the .300 blackout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tgKjbySsAik

 

[jworm1420]

Are you saying that you can load a 125gr projectile out of a .223 case??? Would it still go through cinderblock and be effective??? IM new to the reloading only been doing it about 6 months. Im assuming if thats true u cant fire that out of an AR chambered in 5.56???

 

[Yeah]

Are you saying that you can load a 125gr projectile out of a .223 case???

You sure can.

Would it still go through cinderblock and be effective???

I can't know as I've never needed to shoot something situated opposite a center block. Near certainly someone has shot something with that arrangement and, true to form, the documentation of that will be offered by the many in lieu of hands on experience shooting anything with anything.

Im assuming if thats true u cant fire that out of an AR chambered in 5.56???

You can't. Wildcat makes a 100 grain bullet, and it is junk. Berger makes a 90, same. Sierra probably does too, same. Rumor has it that Matrix is working on a 90 that might be interesting. None of the above will fit in an AR mag with their ogives above the case mouth.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Are you saying that you can load a 125gr projectile out of a .223 case??? Would it still go through cinderblock and be effective??? IM new to the reloading only been doing it about 6 months. Im assuming if thats true u cant fire that out of an AR chambered in 5.56???

The .300 blackout round is a .308 diameter projectile inside of a .223 case. The neck is expanded to fit the larger bullet. You can load whatever grain bullet you want (as long as you can get it to exit the barrel and do what you want it to do), but you have to remember that the .223 case doesn't have as much capacity for a powder charge that a .308 case does. It's got less girth and it's shorter. The .223 case is 45mm long while a .308 is 51mm long.

Would it go through a cinder block? Most likely... the video that Travis Haley did, which is posted in the link in my previous post shows the energy difference between the two rounds. The first video shows the .300 blackout (a hunting round at that) completely breaking the cinder block. If you were to use an FMJ or armor piercing projectile you'd get even better penetration, but have less expansion.

As for shooting it through a 5.56 chambered barrel, the answer is no. You'd need a .300 blackout barrel. Everything else is the same except the barrel and gas system. A lot of this is actually discussed in the Travis Haley video. I think watching it would suit you well if you haven't yet and Travis Haley is definitely a man who knows what he is talking about.

 

[chuddly]

Would it go through a cinder block? Most likely... the video that Travis Haley did, which is posted in the link in my previous post shows the energy difference between the two rounds. The first video shows the .300 blackout (a hunting round at that) completely breaking the cinder block. If you were to use an FMJ or armor piercing projectile you'd get even better penetration, but have less expansion.

Sorry but no it wont....or it didnt anyway in the video i watched. They were using FMJ so im sure AP would go through but even .223 AP will go right through a cinder block. I watched them test the 300 blackout and it DID NOT go through the block. It was on Tac-TV season 2 episode 13. I cant find an online video of it but maybe someone else can.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Sorry but no it wont....or it didnt anyway in the video i watched. They were using FMJ so im sure AP would go through but even .223 AP will go right through a cinder block. I watched them test the 300 blackout and it DID NOT go through the block. It was on Tac-TV season 2 episode 13. I cant find an online video of it but maybe someone else can.

XM855 .223 ammo will penetrate a cinder block, you are right. However, I just posted a video of a .300 AAC Blackout round penetrating a cinder block...

From what I could find on my search Tac-TV used Black Hills Match ammo for their test, which are loaded with a Sierra Matchking projectile. Of course that's not going to penetrate... that projectile isn't made for penetration or even for expansion. It's used for punching clean holes through paper and flying straight. You're placing a target round up against a penetrating round for comparison. How is that a fair test in your mind? Take a .223 target projectile and put it up against a 7.62 penetrating round and you'll get complete opposite results where the .300 Blackout penetrates and the .223 match projectile falls apart on the entry.

The important thing to look for when watching videos when they are comparing rounds is whether it is actually a fair test or if they are bias. If they want to make the .223/5.56 look better then of course they are going to give it the advantage. However in the video I posted you can clearly see the rounds used for the test and they actually used a .223 FMJ against a Hornady polymer tip .300 AAC blackout projectile. They did give the advantage to the .223/5.56 and it still failed.