.223 bullet with .308 penetration????

[chuddly]

that 300 black out didnt "penetrate" the block. it just cracked it open. If it had penitrated it would have punched a hole in that jug. if it was mortared into place it wouldnt have come open like that. Try that same shot with a 308 or a 7.62x39 and you will SEE the difference. Those 2 rounds will go right through the block and then right through the jug and just keep on going. Im not comparing the 300 blackout to the 5.56.....im comparing it to the 308 and 7.62x39 and there is NO comparison. The 300 blackout to me is great for subsonic close quarters (100 yards and in if sub sonic, 150 yards and in if not subsonic) but anything beyond that it just doesnt do it....falls WAY to much and doesnt have the punch that the other larger rounds do.

 

[ckcollins2003]

that 300 black out didnt "penetrate" the block. it just cracked it open. If it had penitrated it would have punched a hole in that jug. if it was mortared into place it wouldnt have come open like that. Try that same shot with a 308 or a 7.62x39 and you will SEE the difference. Those 2 rounds will go right through the block and then right through the jug and just keep on going. Im not comparing the 300 blackout to the 5.56.....im comparing it to the 308 and 7.62x39 and there is NO comparison. The 300 blackout to me is great for subsonic close quarters (100 yards and in if sub sonic, 150 yards and in if not subsonic) but anything beyond that it just doesnt do it....falls WAY to much and doesnt have the punch that the other larger rounds do.

Sounds to me like you were comparing it to a 5.56 since you stated that a 5.56 penetrating round would do it and not a .300 AAC round... based on Tac-TV's testing... but I may have read that wrong.

Tac-TV's testing of the round was complete garbage. There are threads all over the internet of people who own .300 blackout rifles that will second that. The ammo they used for penetrating was target ammo. It doesn't fall as much as what Tac-TV said it does... you should watch the Travis Haley video. Also, here are some people on AR15.com that actually own .300 AAC Blackout AR's who are calling b.s. on Tac-TV's testing and posting their own drop rate, which is nowhere near the 30+" or whatever ridiculous amount that Tac-TV said it was. A friend of mine just got rid of his .300 AAC upper. He shot it out to 300 yards without a problem and he's not an expert shooter... just a hobbyist.

anyone see TAC tv program tonight? 330 BLK round was put down prettybad - Page 1 - AR15.COM

Also, you can't compare it to a .308 or a 7.62X39... the case is the same as a .223. A .308 and 7.62X39 are completely different weapon systems. You can't expect the same results. Also, the price of an AR-10 compared to an AR chambered in .300 AAC is much more expensive. And you're right, it didn't punch straight through it in that first video, but as I said, they used a hunting round which is made to expand, not penetrate. Once again, fair testing in question, but the hunting round did much more to that cinder block than a 5.56 FMJ. It broke apart the cinder block. There's no question about it. Your target will not be behind that barrier afterwards unless they are retarded.

If the .300 AAC is a 150 yard and closer round, how is it that someone can ding steel all the way out at 750 meters using a 10" suppressed barrel, subsonic rounds, and an Aimpoint? Once again... Travis Haley video. The OP's question was if he could get .308 results out of a .223. Since the .300 AAC is a .308 diameter bullet inside of a .223 casing, of course it's the closest he's going to get. Unless he spends the money to load his magazines full of XM855 penetrating rounds... which is still going to transfer much less energy to the target.

Travis Haley video for you... please, watch it. I took the time to look up Tac-TV's testing, take the time to watch a few unbiased opinions about the round coming from people who use it and know what they are doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tgKjbySsAik

 

[chuddly]

i got around to watching the video link you posted. Good stuff and alot of what he said make sense (the part about building your own gun is just ignorant though). I understand what you (and he) are saying and i have to say the Tac-tv guy is a idiot so im not taking what he says as the whole story. The 300 black out may very well be a much longer range round than what I though. Your video didnt get into penetration at all (they talked about energy). For me having seen 2 videos (your earlier posted vid with milk jugs and the Tac-TV one) it flat out doesn't penetrate like the 7.62x39 or the 308...no questions asked no excuses made...it just doesn't do it. It defiantly does better (penetration wise) than the 5.56. The original discussion of a .223 bullet with 308 penetration the 300 black out doesn't solve because its NOT a .223 bullet and as i stated before you would have to go AP to get that. Also the 300 blackout doesn't penetrate like the 308 so it doesn't really solve the problem. It is an interesting round to me and im looking/thinking about building one for myself but it defiantly wont replace a 308 round.

 

[jworm1420]

I am considering getting an Ak in 7.62x39, because it has good penetration and the reliability factor. But im wondering about reloading. Not reloading 7.62x39 because buying that stuff is fairly chep. Is the case for 7.62x39 able to be used and shot for .308 reloads and shot out of a .308 bolt gun???? Keep in mind like i said im new to the reloading so if these question are somewhat lame, its because im new to the game. Yes, i was a rapper in a previous life....LOL. Thanks guys

 

[avboiler11]

No, you can't use 7.62x39 cases in a 308 Winchester.

Also, why is everybody concerned with barrier penetration? What, who, and for what purpose are you intending to shoot through cars, doors, walls and cinderblock in order to hit a soft target?

 

[jworm1420]

because i wanted to know.

 

[cookchs]

The .308 does have a lot of drop, but that's because it's a heavy bullet. Shot out of a .223 case it doesn't have the capacity to fire out as fast as the .308 casing, but it will still do everything you need it to in a real world situation. Even the 110-125gr .308 projectiles are almost twice as much mass as the .224 projectiles that are usually found in mil-surp ammo.

Travis Haley did a video where he shot the .300 blackout at 750 meters with a 10" suppressed upper and subsonic rounds. In reality, a .308 isn't a long range round either, but it sure packs one hell of a punch and the .300 blackout will do the same.

Different strokes for different folks, but people shouldn't underestimate the .300 blackout. If I were to build an AR platform rifle for shooting through concrete blocks to hit a target, I'd pick the .300 blackout over the .223 all day.


Here's a video of both against a concrete block. The .300 blackout round is also polymer tip, either an A-MAX or a V-MAX which is used for hunting and expansion rather than penetration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18NlKr2ESQM

And here's Travis Haley on the .300 blackout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tgKjbySsAik

"Hot" loads not withstanding how does the .223 stand up overall? I know it is a popular round and works will in outdoor settings but what if, heaven forbid, I need to put the round through a car door, window, or wall to hit my target. Will I still have enough energy to drop my target? (Sorry I just getting started in this line of guns)

 

[cookchs]

No, you can't use 7.62x39 cases in a 308 Winchester.

Also, why is everybody concerned with barrier penetration? What, who, and for what purpose are you intending to shoot through cars, doors, walls and cinderblock in order to hit a soft target?

Hopefully never. Still, I am looking for a good all around calibur if I am going to only own one gun. "Be prepared" is not a bad motto.

 

[ckcollins2003]

"Hot" loads not withstanding how does the .223 stand up overall? I know it is a popular round and works will in outdoor settings but what if, heaven forbid, I need to put the round through a car door, window, or wall to hit my target. Will I still have enough energy to drop my target? (Sorry I just getting started in this line of guns)

Drywall.. yes, no problem. Same with a window. Brick wall, concrete wall, car door, etc. it won't do it. As chuddly said, you'd need AP ammo to do those things. Something with a steel penetrator such as the XM855 round will go through a concrete wall and a car door. How far into a car door I honestly don't know. I guess it depends on what's on the other side of it and how thick the door panels are, but I don't see door panels as being a problem for that round.

The problem you might run into by loading your defense mags with that kind of ammo is what the bullet might hit after your target. If your target isn't behind a barrier (and even if they are in some cases) you're likely to hit an innocent bystander or someone's house. I don't recommend using that kind of ammo for self defense in an urban setting at all. If you're surrounded by miles worth or fields, load up. Just remember that you are responsible for what that bullet does after it exits your intended target.

 

[avboiler11]

Hopefully never. Still, I am looking for a good all around calibur if I am going to only own one gun. "Be prepared" is not a bad motto.

Be prepared...but not paranoid.

The odds of you (or anybody else not in the military or law enforcement) needing your fire to penetrate a barrier and hit a soft target behind it are somewhere between slim and nonexistent.

If you want or need more "ass" out of your 5.56, shoot Hornady 75gr TAP, 62gr TAP Barrier, anything Federal with a Nosler Partition or TSX bullet, or Mk262 77gr ammo.

There's never a substitute for "enough gun", but buy something that meets your 90% use...not the 1% "just in case" test.

JMHO

 

[chuddly]

Pretty much right except the car door thing....a regular round should go right on through (unless it hits funny on something). I did some testing with regular rounds and AP rounds a while back. the regular rounds went through far more then i thought they would. The AP rounds made it through (but just barely) 1/2" mild steel. I was actually able to recover some of the steel cores because they would just make it through and hit the dirt and sit on top of the dirt.

Drywall.. yes, no problem. Same with a window. Brick wall, concrete wall, car door, etc. it won't do it. As chuddly said, you'd need AP ammo to do those things. Something with a steel penetrator such as the XM855 round will go through a concrete wall and a car door. How far into a car door I honestly don't know. I guess it depends on what's on the other side of it and how thick the door panels are, but I don't see door panels as being a problem for that round.

The problem you might run into by loading your defense mags with that kind of ammo is what the bullet might hit after your target. If your target isn't behind a barrier (and even if they are in some cases) you're likely to hit an innocent bystander or someone's house. I don't recommend using that kind of ammo for self defense in an urban setting at all. If you're surrounded by miles worth or fields, load up. Just remember that you are responsible for what that bullet does after it exits your intended target.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Pretty much right except the car door thing....a regular round should go right on through (unless it hits funny on something). I did some testing with regular rounds and AP rounds a while back. the regular rounds went through far more then i thought they would. The AP rounds made it through (but just barely) 1/2" mild steel. I was actually able to recover some of the steel cores because they would just make it through and hit the dirt and sit on top of the dirt.

I envy you, sir. I've always wanted to shoot up a car... Great info though. Thanks.

 

[cookchs]

Be prepared...but not paranoid.

The odds of you (or anybody else not in the military or law enforcement) needing your fire to penetrate a barrier and hit a soft target behind it are somewhere between slim and nonexistent.

If you want or need more "ass" out of your 5.56, shoot Hornady 75gr TAP, 62gr TAP Barrier, anything Federal with a Nosler Partition or TSX bullet, or Mk262 77gr ammo.

There's never a substitute for "enough gun", but buy something that meets your 90% use...not the 1% "just in case" test.

JMHO

Fair enough.

 

[johntheplinker]

Wrong, the only differences in the brass is that 5.56 brass has a long throat by design, which yields higher pressures than the SAMMI specs for .223.

223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide

Might want to reread that. The throat is part of the chamber, not the brass. The 5.56 ammo is loaded to higher pressure than .223. All the longer throat does is allow longer bullets to be used without increasing pressure even further.

 

[sgreen3]

Just save your pennies and buy an AR10 platform rifle or FAL or something along those lines, and problem solved

 

[rgoodin]

military match grade ammo is alot different then the 7.62 nato. in regards to penetrations. I used standard 7.62 and match 7.62 on a m14EBR and there was a great amount of difference at 600-700 meters

 

[SSGSAD]

Hopefully never. Still, I am looking for a good all around calibur if I am going to only own one gun. "Be prepared" is not a bad motto.

Just get a .308. 7.62 NATO... It will do "just about" anything one would want....

 

[subtlesixer03]

Not to be a party pooper but does not this rifle pretty much make this thread null and void?

Rock River Arms: RRA LAR-47 7.62x39mm

It kinda kills the whole 300blk point as well. Though I do still like the speed of a straight drop and insert mag. I am hoping this rifle is as acurate as most 556 ARs are as well.