1911 external vs internal extractors... Pros and cons

[Chris3113]

I'm in the market for another 1911. I have a Kimber Ultra Carry II and am in the market for a full size. I've recently bought a few sig pistols and love both of them (p224 and p226). I was looking a lot at sig 1911's but reading about them it seems a lot of people in the 1911 world seem to not like the external extractors. I was wanting pros and cons on 1911's with external extractors because having the two sigs with external extractors vs the kimber with internal I don't see what the external would hurt on the sig 1911?

 

[halfmileharry]

Sig has one of the better external extractors of the 1911s. External is a bit more prone to dirt getting between the frame and extractor causing fte.
I HAD 2 Sigs with the External extractors. That was the only issue I had with them other than trying to find holsters for the earlier model one.

 

[churchmouse]

Being a purist an externally extracted piece is not a 1911 in the true sense of the word. Many say what we have now is merely a clone as well.
I disagree as parts from my 1942 Colt will fit in most any of my newer 1911's. Maybe not really well but they do fit.

Now as to pros/cons.......They both work as designed.

Dirt can be an issue as Harry mentions but hey.....clean your guns Harry.....

 

[Chris3113]

That's pretty much what I expected. In all honesty I've had way more trouble out of my kimber than the two sigs (it's really ammo picky). I don't really want to get into a cheaper 1911 and not sure I want to fork out the price for a Wilson, les bear, Dan Wesson, etc... So a sig scorpion may be my best bet.

 

[churchmouse]

That's pretty much what I expected. In all honesty I've had way more trouble out of my kimber than the two sigs (it's really ammo picky). I don't really want to get into a cheaper 1911 and not sure I want to fork out the price for a Wilson, les bear, Dan Wesson, etc... So a sig scorpion may be my best bet.

Remington/Ruger/Springfield all make reliable mid range 1911's. I have owned all 3 Marques and have settled into the Springer line.

 

[halfmileharry]

That's pretty much what I expected. In all honesty I've had way more trouble out of my kimber than the two sigs (it's really ammo picky). I don't really want to get into a cheaper 1911 and not sure I want to fork out the price for a Wilson, les bear, Dan Wesson, etc... So a sig scorpion may be my best bet.

Churchmouse works on them where I only tinker with my own. My experiences tell me to keep the price reasonable I'll stick to Springfield Armory 1911s. I've got a reasonable amount of them and they're basically trouble free guns. Lifetime warranty and SA support people are tops.

 

[Chris3113]

I'm not at all against a Springfield. I was just thinking of a gun that will hold its value more. I'm not sure how much I would shoot it.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

External is just the evolution of the design. The are no more cons than an internal and more pros. If wanting a car with power steering offends a "purist" I'm ok with that.

 

[churchmouse]

External is just the evolution of the design. The are no more cons than an internal and more pros. If wanting a car with power steering offends a "purist" I'm ok with that.

Not had any relevant failures with my internals to base any real advantages.
Had one wear out at just north of the 10K mark. Easy peasy fix.
Had one break in a low end 1911.
I have repaired more than a few externals.

I am not "Offended" in any way I just do not appreciate the look. If you want a racing strip on your car and I do not well............I do not see any true advantages. If there are any it would seem so minimal. But, any improvement in design should be looked at in total. I have owned enough externals (S&W etc) to not see the need. I do not like the overall look. Yeah I know...."Purist"
I am a "Purist" in appearance but not in leaving the platform as built.

The external comes off as an easier manf/assembly to me.

To each their own of course.

 

[dave29]

I have almost all the 1911's mentioned in this thread. Ruger, Sig, Springfield, Remington, and Kimber. The Kimber is my least favorite of the bunch. It is a new model and while the fit is OK, the finish kinda sucks and they ship with a plastic mainspring housing. Not sure if all the kimber ship with that plastic part, but my model did and I replaced it with a Fusion MSH immediately. My Sig is a commander length Scorpion with a threaded barrel. It is probably my favorite 1911, but I like commanders and they were one of the only that shipped with a factory threaded barrel.

 

[Hornett]

A few years back, Kimber started making 1911's with external extractors.
They never did work right, or at least, there were a lot of problems.
If you buy a Kimber now, you will see that they have gone back to the Holy JMB design with the internal extractor.
They went through a lot of different changes to try to fix their external extractors, but never succeded.
I am not sure Kimber ever even knew what was wrong, they just gave up.

As others have said, its not really the external extractor that is necessarily bad.
Sigs, Glocks, and CZ 75's all have external extractors and they are revered by many.
I think Kimbers little sashay into external extractor territory, and the subsequent dismal failure, did a lot for the distrust of the external extractor 1911's

I don't know about all, but most of the Kimbers ship with a plastic MSH.
I hate mine, but have been too lazy to replace it.

 

[gglass]

I'm not at all against a Springfield. I was just thinking of a gun that will hold its value more. I'm not sure how much I would shoot it.

In the 'holding of value" sense of "collectible", many would put Springfield Armory above most any 1911 that Sig Saur has ever produced, and even Kimber would be hard pressed to have a model more collectible than the Springfield Armory "Professional" 1911. I would likely sell a kidney for a SA Professional. A true collectible would be a quality firearm that is made in "very" limited quantities with uniquely identifiable serial numbers, like the SA Professional. Kimber does some limited runs every year, but I'm not sure if the collectible market is tracking with their supposed limited numbers, since most people I know would much rather have the famed SA "Professional" than lets say Kimber's current GOLD COMBAT II (LIMITED EDITION), which costs about the same as the Professional if purchased as new.

The value of Springfield Armory to many lies in the fact that they have stayed true to the JMB 70 Series design. The fact that SA uses forged frames and slides instead of casting gives them more collectible appeal as well. Even the semi-custom fit TRP line of 1911s will hold its value more than any Sig 1911 that I can think of off hand.

 

[halfmileharry]

I don't see any real disadvantage to the plastic MSH other than a dropped gun with near perfect hit on a hard surface to break it. I've got over 6K on a Custom II and a recent disassembly and clean and lube didn't show any discernible wear on the msh or crappy MIM stuff.
I'd probably agree with SA holding value better than most models due to forging, the reliability, and service reputation of them.
All 1911s are now in the Evolution stage unless you go to a GI mil-spec. Though I cut my teeth on the GI Milspec in the USMC I much prefer the basic improvements of the evolved 1911s. Evolution isn't a bad thing.

 

[Hornett]

I don't see any real disadvantage to the plastic MSH other than a dropped gun with near perfect hit on a hard surface to break it. I've got over 6K on a Custom II and a recent disassembly and clean and lube didn't show any discernible wear on the msh or crappy MIM stuff.

While I agree with that. I still hate it. John Browning does not approve.

 

[halfmileharry]

While I agree with that. I still hate it. John Browning does not approve.

I hate it too but .....well, I still hate it

 

[VERT]

I am a believer in the larger external extractors on Smiths Pro Series and E Series pistols. I might have one break tomorrow but so far all is good. Yanking spent cases out of the chamber is just not a problem with these guns.

 

[88E30M50]

The Sigs have a lot to offer in their 1911 line. For around a grand, you get a nicely built pistol that has front strap checkering, night sights, extended thumb safeties and a beaver tail grip safety. Most have G10 grips as well. I've owned two full size Sig 1911s and both have run very well for me. The biggest issue I have with the Sig 1911s is the slide profile makes holster choices more difficult than it is with most other 1911s.

CM likes to remind me that they are not really 1911s, but more of a derivative of the design, but I'm Ok with that. All 1911s built today are derivative of the original. I don't know about Sigs holding their values any more or any less than most other brands. These are all production guns and until you get north of $1200, they all hold their value about the same. Resale value really depends on the particular gun and the market at the time of sale. Even Springfield has had some weak offerings in the 1911 line with the Brazilian ones several years back.

 

[Hohn]

While I agree with that. I still hate it. John Browning does not approve.

You have no idea what JMB would or would not approve of, had he access to modern CNC machine tools, advanced FR Polymers, and high grade alloys.

A modern JMB design would be MUCH closer to a Glock than you guys want to admit...

 

[Hornett]

You have no idea what JMB would or would not approve of, had he access to modern CNC machine tools, advanced FR Polymers, and high grade alloys.

A modern JMB design would be MUCH closer to a Glock than you guys want to admit...

I resemble that remark.
And he most definitely would not approve of your attitude.
If JMB were alive today, he would stare disapprovingly.

 

[churchmouse]

The Sigs have a lot to offer in their 1911 line. For around a grand, you get a nicely built pistol that has front strap checkering, night sights, extended thumb safeties and a beaver tail grip safety. Most have G10 grips as well. I've owned two full size Sig 1911s and both have run very well for me. The biggest issue I have with the Sig 1911s is the slide profile makes holster choices more difficult than it is with most other 1911s.

CM likes to remind me that they are not really 1911s, but more of a derivative of the design, but I'm Ok with that. All 1911s built today are derivative of the original. I don't know about Sigs holding their values any more or any less than most other brands. These are all production guns and until you get north of $1200, they all hold their value about the same. Resale value really depends on the particular gun and the market at the time of sale. Even Springfield has had some weak offerings in the 1911 line with the Brazilian ones several years back.