17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[KG1]

If Zimmerman shouldn't have left home that night, then whoever gets into a car wreck should not have been driving. That is a BS reason overall.

I know it's BS. Just did'nt use purple.

 

[griffin]

That's my point. Tell that to Kutnupe, he started this whole "what if" thing.

Sorry.

 

[Benny]

Maybe I am crazy or just a big weenie, but I am not following a guy who I think is suspicious or maybe a criminal. I am not putting myself in a position of danger if I don't need to. That to me is the opposite of self defense. I am taking myself out of the situation and let the cops handle it.

If that makes you a weenie then,

*Raises hand* Fellow weenie here.

If Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle and minded his own business (or called 911 and let the police handle it), Martin would still be alive and he wouldn't be facing charges.

Zimmerman following Martin (which is one of the few facts we actually have) seems like much more of a threat than anything we have on Martin.

Zimmerman instigated a confrontation, got his ass kicked by a teenager and then killed him. Second degree murder might not fit, but I certainly think manslaughter does.

 

[KG1]

If that makes you a weenie then,

*Raises hand* Fellow weenie here.

If Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle and minded his own business (or called 911 and let the police handle it), Martin would still be alive and he wouldn't be facing charges.

Zimmerman following Martin (which is one of the few facts we actually have) seems like much more of a threat than anything we have on Martin.

Zimmerman instigated a confrontation, got his ass kicked by a teenager and then killed him. Second degree murder might not fit, but I certainly think manslaughter does.

If Zimmerman had never left his house that day....Oh nevermind.

 

[Benny]

Yes, because leaving your house is equivalent to instigating a confrontation.

 

[Kutnupe14]

So stepping out of your vehicle makes you guilty of manslaughter if someone later attacks you? Gotcha.

Yeah, thats exactly what's implied. I suggest you look up a few different definitions of fallacies.

Just sayin'

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

Yes, because leaving your house is equivalent to instigating a confrontation.

Eh whats the point, I know what you are saying but anytime one of the skeptics try and make any kind of point some sarcastic answer follows. This is going nowhere, I guess its agree to disagree time.

Both sides seem to agree on that Zimmerman followed Martin and imo that is doing nothing but escalating the situation. Who is to say that Martin wasnt justified in punching Zimmerman to begin with? Maybe he felt threatened that he was being followed and was standing his ground. Why does one person have the right to self defense and the other doesnt? Id probably be kinda nervous/edgy if someone I didnt know was following me home from the gas station at night.

But using Griffins logic, Martin should have just shot Zimmerman because his word would have been good enough since the other guy was dead and everyone else really seemed to have little to no real account of what they saw.

 

[griffin]

If Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle and minded his own business (or called 911 and let the police handle it)

Let's review what happened. True, Zimmerman did leave his vehicle. But originally he was in his vehicle talking to the police. Trayvon saw him watching him and approached Zimmerman. At some point (maybe he heard what Zimmerman was saying on the phone?) he took off running, confirming Zimmerman's suspicions. Yeah, Z didn't want him to get away before the cops could show up, so he followed to report Trayvon's location. But he stopped following and began returning to his truck.

Zimmerman instigated a confrontation

Actually Trayvon initiated a confrontation. Twice. Possibly three times.

In any event, since it seems like Zimmerman’s main goal was to stay in touch the with police throughout the evening, it seems unlikely that he would intentionally start any physical altercation knowing that they were on their way.

The Missing 2:30 & DeeDee’s Testimony

 

[Mackey]

Let's review what happened. True, Zimmerman did leave his vehicle. But originally he was in his vehicle talking to the police. Trayvon saw him watching him and approached Zimmerman. At some point (maybe he heard what Zimmerman was saying on the phone?) he took off running, confirming Zimmerman's suspicions. Yeah, Z didn't want him to get away before the cops could show up, so he followed to report Trayvon's location. But he stopped following and began returning to his truck.Actually Trayvon initiated a confrontation. Twice. Possibly three times.

In any event, since it seems like Zimmerman’s main goal was to stay in touch the with police throughout the evening, it seems unlikely that he would intentionally start any physical altercation knowing that they were on their way.

I'm not getting this line of reasoning. Seems like your making alot of assumptions.
You could as easily say, "Since TM saw Zimmerman on the phone and he was not in his own neighborhood, he could assume that the police had been called and he (being the hardened criminal that he was) would never start a confrontation knowing that the police were on the way.

 

[griffin]

Seems like your making alot of assumptions.

I made some assumptions, yes. May I refer you to this post?

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ighborhood_watch_captain-354.html#post2946197

Zimmerman's account of the incident seems to be backed up by both physical evidence and witness testimony. Any other "theory" about what happened is not.

 

[Benny]

Both sides seem to agree on that Zimmerman followed Martin and imo that is doing nothing but escalating the situation. Who is to say that Martin wasnt justified in punching Zimmerman to begin with? Maybe he felt threatened that he was being followed and was standing his ground. Why does one person have the right to self defense and the other doesnt? Id probably be kinda nervous/edgy if someone I didnt know was following me home from the gas station at night.

Exactly my point(s). There is little to no argument that Zimmerman escalated the situation by following him, then he killed him. WTF?

Let's review what happened. True, Zimmerman did leave his vehicle. But originally he was in his vehicle talking to the police. Trayvon saw him watching him and approached Zimmerman. At some point (maybe he heard what Zimmerman was saying on the phone?) he took off running, confirming Zimmerman's suspicions. Yeah, Z didn't want him to get away before the cops could show up, so he followed to report Trayvon's location. But he stopped following and began returning to his truck.Actually Trayvon initiated a confrontation. Twice. Possibly three times.

In any event, since it seems like Zimmerman’s main goal was to stay in touch the with police throughout the evening, it seems unlikely that he would intentionally start any physical altercation knowing that they were on their way.

The Missing 2:30 & DeeDee’s Testimony

Who in their right mind chases after someone running from them, then kills them when they catch them?

Seriously, even if Trayvon got fed up with being chased, why didn't he have the right to stand his ground and that ***** (seriously, what kind of able-bodied, grown man gets his ass kicked by a 140 lb teenager?) Zimmerman did have that right?

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that it is A OK to chase someone down then kill them when they get mad.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

Let's review what happened. True, Zimmerman did leave his vehicle. But originally he was in his vehicle talking to the police. Trayvon saw him watching him and approached Zimmerman. At some point (maybe he heard what Zimmerman was saying on the phone?) he took off running, confirming Zimmerman's suspicions. Yeah, Z didn't want him to get away before the cops could show up, so he followed to report Trayvon's location. But he stopped following and began returning to his truck.Actually Trayvon initiated a confrontation. Twice. Possibly three times.

In any event, since it seems like Zimmerman’s main goal was to stay in touch the with police throughout the evening, it seems unlikely that he would intentionally start any physical altercation knowing that they were on their way.

The Missing 2:30 & DeeDee’s Testimony

At 7:11 in that video Zimmerman said he has something in his wasit band or he is putting his hands into his wasit band, something along those lines. He siad he was staring at him, he said he looked like he was on drugs, he said he looked like he was up to no good.

So you are telling me that it makes sense to get out of your truck after that kind of guy is running away, to follow him? Seriously after a possible crazy drug addict up to no good who was grabbing at his waist band?

I am sorry but that is to me seems very sketchy.

Seems to me he called 911 on a kid who was walking on the side walk, looking around on his way home from the store. Martin saw him, stared at him and started running. Zimmerman followed him and then there was a confrontation, we dont know who started it. According to Zimmerman it was Martin, but who knows if that is accurate or not. I am sorry if I dont just take his word for it.

It could have been just as easily that Martin was scared he was being followed and his fight or flight insticts kicked in and he was beating Zimmermans but. Then once Zimmerman was getting pounded he killed Martin.

You guys are so on one side, you are convinced Zimmerman did nothing wrong with the only real "evidence" if you call it that is his testimony.

I am skeptical, I just want the facts to come out. Maybe I am crazy for just not saying it was a clean kill way to to take out the trash like I have also read on here. A kid died, sure he wasnt a saint, but doesnt he deserve a fair shake? For all we know Zimmerman may be lying through his teeth just no evidence to contradict or convict. I mean that has happened before you know, Casey Anthony says hello.

 

[jbombelli]

Because following somebody means you deserve to be beaten to death and should just take your killing like a man.

Right?

 

[dross]

Exactly my point(s). There is little to no argument that Zimmerman escalated the situation by following him, then he killed him. WTF?



Who in their right mind chases after someone running from them, then kills them when they catch them?

Seriously, even if Trayvon got fed up with being chased, why didn't he have the right to stand his ground and that ***** (seriously, what kind of able-bodied, grown man gets his ass kicked by a 140 lb teenager?) Zimmerman did have that right?

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that it is A OK to chase someone down then kill them when they get mad.

I'm not seeing your point, or maybe we're picturing two different things.

If Zimmerman was chasing Martin like he was trying to chase him down, I could see how that would be a threat. If he was following at a reasonable distance and then Martin ran and then Zimmerman was looking for him, and then Martin came up to him and hit him, that's another thing entirely.

I haven't heard any evidence that Zimmerman ran after him.

In my neighborhood, someone suspicious would stand out. If I saw someone who looked out of place and they were acting suspicious, I might check them out.

Let's say I called out to them, "Hey, you! What are you doing around here?!" and the guy took off running. In my neighborhood that would be very strange and very suspicious behavior. If he ran between my neighbors' house and I followed, I might be making a tactical mistake, but I don't see how I'm the cause of something if he then attacks me.

I don't get the leap between doing something that isn't very advisable to being responsible for a death.

Once I got lost in a town in Georgia when I was in the Army. I was on foot. I ended up walking through a very bad area. A group of young black men began following me, loudly talking about me being in the wrong place. Could I have attacked them?

Or let's take it another step. Since I had every right to walk through there, if I had come armed the next time, do I have a responsibility for a death if I'm attacked? After all, I did something stupid by walking through there, and by coming armed I could easily predict that something might happen.

I just don't think we can go down that road very far.

Was Zimmerman doing anything illegal by following?
Did he initiate physical contact?

These are the questions that are pertinent to me.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

Because following somebody means you deserve to be beaten to death and should just take your killing like a man.

Right?

Depends on the situation, if Martin truly felt his life was in danger then yes, he was within his right to use deadly force. That is kind of the point of the FL stand your ground laws, it allows you to protect yourself and not have to run. Be that with your hands, knife, or gun.

How come Zimmerman had a right to use deadly force when he thought his life was in jeopardy but Martin didn't?

As far as the last part, what he should have done was not put himself in that position to begin with. If you are going to put yourself in situations like that you should probably be able to defend yourself against a lanky 140lb high school kid without resorting to a gun.

 

[HICKMAN]

Bottom line, last man standing claims self-defense.

And they both would have been able to justify it.

As we've all been told, "dead mail tell no tales".

 

[Benny]

I'm not seeing your point, or maybe we're picturing two different things.

If Zimmerman was chasing Martin like he was trying to chase him down, I could see how that would be a threat. If he was following at a reasonable distance and then Martin ran and then Zimmerman was looking for him, and then Martin came up to him and hit him, that's another thing entirely.

I haven't heard any evidence that Zimmerman ran after him.

In my neighborhood, someone suspicious would stand out. If I saw someone who looked out of place and they were acting suspicious, I might check them out.

Let's say I called out to them, "Hey, you! What are you doing around here?!" and the guy took off running. In my neighborhood that would be very strange and very suspicious behavior. If he ran between my neighbors' house and I followed, I might be making a tactical mistake, but I don't see how I'm the cause of something if he then attacks me.

I don't get the leap between doing something that isn't very advisable to being responsible for a death.

Once I got lost in a town in Georgia when I was in the Army. I was on foot. I ended up walking through a very bad area. A group of young black men began following me, loudly talking about me being in the wrong place. Could I have attacked them?

Or let's take it another step. Since I had every right to walk through there, if I had come armed the next time, do I have a responsibility for a death if I'm attacked? After all, I did something stupid by walking through there, and by coming armed I could easily predict that something might happen.

I just don't think we can go down that road very far.

Was Zimmerman doing anything illegal by following?
Did he initiate physical contact?

These are the questions that are pertinent to me.

My point is we have very few facts in this case. We don't know who attacked who first, we don't know if Martin took off running, we don't know if Zimmerman deserved a beating or if Martin deserved to be shot. The only facts are Zimmerman pulled up to Martin, got out of his vehicle and proceeded to follow him, resulting in Martin's death.

I don't see how Zimmerman's accounts after he got off of the phone are even relevant to the case. He can say whatever he wants, obviously he's not going to tell them he wanted one less "f***ing c***" wandering his neighborhood, he's going to tell them Martin started it. Who wouldn't if they were facing second degree murder charges?

I just don't see how Zimmerman wasn't in the wrong by escalating the situation (following Martin even after being advised not to) and not just waiting for the police.

I hope that helps.

 

[04DarkShadowGT]

I'm not seeing your point, or maybe we're picturing two different things.

If Zimmerman was chasing Martin like he was trying to chase him down, I could see how that would be a threat. If he was following at a reasonable distance and then Martin ran and then Zimmerman was looking for him, and then Martin came up to him and hit him, that's another thing entirely.

I haven't heard any evidence that Zimmerman ran after him.

It was in the 911 call posted by Griffin, he was following him and the dispatcher told him not to do that.

In my neighborhood, someone suspicious would stand out. If I saw someone who looked out of place and they were acting suspicious, I might check them out.

Let's say I called out to them, "Hey, you! What are you doing around here?!" and the guy took off running. In my neighborhood that would be very strange and very suspicious behavior. If he ran between my neighbors' house and I followed, I might be making a tactical mistake, but I don't see how I'm the cause of something if he then attacks me.

I don't get the leap between doing something that isn't very advisable to being responsible for a death.

Agreed, you would be within your rights to fight back if you were jumped, we dont know if that is what happened in this case. Again all we have is the testimony by the defendant.

Once I got lost in a town in Georgia when I was in the Army. I was on foot. I ended up walking through a very bad area. A group of young black men began following me, loudly talking about me being in the wrong place. Could I have attacked them?

Or let's take it another step. Since I had every right to walk through there, if I had come armed the next time, do I have a responsibility for a death if I'm attacked? After all, I did something stupid by walking through there, and by coming armed I could easily predict that something might happen.

I just don't think we can go down that road very far.

If you felt your life as in danger sure you could ahve attacked them, but you are smart enough to understand there are more of them than there are of you. That is a different situation than this case.

As for your second step, again not really applicable. Martin was not aware he was going to have any issues walking home from the store in what is not a bad part of Atlanta. You would have been going back a second time for no reason other than to see what happened. Sure that is not a crime but its just dumb. You know thats really not relevant to this case either.

Was Zimmerman doing anything illegal by following?
Did he initiate physical contact?

These are the questions that are pertinent to me.

Was Martin doing anything illegal walking home from the store?

Who knows who initiated the contact, we only get one side of the story.

 

[griffin]

why didn't he [Trayvon] have the right to stand his ground

If Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, he did. Got any evidence of that? Even if that did happen, and there is no evidence to show that to be the case, the legal problem is, once Trayvon is on top of Zimmernan beating him, he has stopped the threat. But if he keeps pounding his head into the pavement after the threat has been stopped, he then becomes the aggressor. At that point Zimmerman doesn't know if he's going to kill him, or he will be unconscious at which point Trayvon can kill him or do any serious bodily harm he wants. Thus, Zimmerman still has self-defense rights, even if he initiated the confrontation, which, again, there is no evidence to show that to be the case. Got any?

seriously, what kind of able-bodied, grown man gets his ass kicked by a 140 lb teenager?

Wow, Trayvon must have gained a lot of weight all of a sudden right before the autopsy! Trayvon weighed about the same as Zimmerman. Plus he was seven inches taller. In addition, Trayvon used to practice in his "Fight Club" where they would videotape "refereed" street fights. Trayvon both fought and refereed. I don't think Zimmerman was a fighter.

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that it is A OK to chase someone down then kill them when they get mad.

I gathered that. Reread the case. At least as much as we know of it now.

What about if, during the pummeling, Trayvon saw Zimmerman's holstered weapon and went for it?

 

[griffin]

we dont know who started it. According to Zimmerman it was Martin, but who knows if that is accurate or not. I am sorry if I dont just take his word for it.

May I refer you to this post?

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ighborhood_watch_captain-354.html#post2946197

You guys are so on one side, you are convinced Zimmerman did nothing wrong with the only real "evidence" if you call it that is his testimony.

Not exactly. May I refer you to this post?

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ighborhood_watch_captain-354.html#post2946197

A kid died, sure he wasnt a saint, but doesnt he deserve a fair shake?

Actions have consequences.