12 year old faces life in prison

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  • dburkhead

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    How about 8yrs old? He knew what he was doing, he planned it.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/11child.html
    You guys are fully comfortable in executing an 8 yr old as well? He killed therefore he should be killed himself...right?
    Its easy to say in the sterile world of the internet but in practice, killing a child is MUCH more difficult.

    So what age?

    If 12 is too young, how about 13? If 13 is too young how about 14? 15? 16? 17? What is it about one particular magic number that after that birthday capital punishment is OK, but before it not?

    Or, working backward, at what age does a cold-blooded, consciousless killer get a "bye"?
     
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    It is disturbing to contemplate the execution of one who is, technically, a child.

    Then again, I find it more disturbing to think of a 12 year old who could murder a stranger in cold blood. What kind of monster will he be when he is "old enough for capitol punishment"?

    Sorry...we've got enough bad people in the world, and with this one, we get a chance to nip it in the bud. I say throw the switch. And yeah, I snuck out as a kid...but never to commit armed robbery and murder, mostly just to smoke pot and eat cookies at a friends house. Apples and oranges comparison if I ever saw one...
     

    dburkhead

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    Maybe we should wait until he is convicted before he is hanged? Those who advocate the death of the 12yr old rather than jail, could you push the button and administer the injection?

    The "could you push the button" is not a matter of right or wrong but of squeamishness, pure and simple. A lot of people have no problem with the idea of eating lamb but would balk at killing one.

    Could I push the button on a cold-blooded consciousless killer who happens to be 12? I don't know. But then I don't know if I could do it on a 32 year serial killer either. I've never been in the position of having to kill another human being, in cold blood or warm--something for which I am quite grateful, BTW--and with any luck at all I never will.

    None of that changes what I think is the right thing.

    When it comes to capital punishment I have rather mixed feelings. On the one hand, I don't consider it punishment, per se. One doesn't execute criminals for committing crimes. One executes them for being the kind of person who commits those kinds of crimes. Kind of a sanitation measure, like shooting sick cattle. Don't have a problem in the world with that. On the other hand (no, I'm not going to go up to six hands here ;)), the evidence I've seen about the, um, less than sterling results of such convictions. There have been entirely too many cases of folk being sent to death row who are later found not guilty--many because somebody else confessed to the crime or because some college or law school students took an interest in the case and managed to unearth new evidence that changed the verdict.

    So, while perfection is not an obtainable goal and I don't expect it, I do expect that the law err on the side of protecting the innocent. For a death sentence, I don't want "beyond a reasonable doubt." I want beyond some pretty unreasonable doubts. You don't get any "do overs" with the death penalty.
     

    El Cazador

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    How about 8yrs old? He knew what he was doing, he planned it.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/11child.html
    You guys are fully comfortable in executing an 8 yr old as well? He killed therefore he should be killed himself...right?
    Its easy to say in the sterile world of the internet but in practice, killing a child is MUCH more difficult.

    I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. The NY Slimes website won't let me read the article without paying, and I'm not giving them a dime. Here's one on the story:
    8-Year-Old Arizona Boy Kills Father - cbs13.com

    This article, and subsequent articles paint a picture of a child with possible psychological problems. He's quoted as saying he'd kill his father after "1000 smacks". His other comments made during later police and court interviews sounds a bit off, too. This was an inter-family crime, so extenuating circumstances may be there.

    The 12 year old walked up to the car, poked a gun at the woman, demanded money, and shot her during a struggle. Not in any way the same type of incident.

    Detroit boy, 12, faces life murder charge in death - Nation - Wire - Kentucky.com

    This article says the boy may get a "blended" sentence, where he does juvie time, then adult time. He's a feral predator. What do we usually do with those?
     

    public servant

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    I snuck out as a kid...mostly just to smoke pot and eat cookies at a friends house.
    You mean brownies...right?? ;)

    pot-brownie-by-google.jpg
     
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    Brownies...? Perhaps. I think I'll have to plead the 5th on that one!

    Not saying it was a good or legal thing to be doing at the time...but it was mostly harmless, especially compared to something like this.
     

    originalhonkey

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    i see my hanging comment went well. i hate seeing any human be put to death.but this is not 50 60 or even 70 years ago. there are larger # of this happening daily and the life in prison with the hots a cot tv and playground time is bs. that young girl will never get to see another family member even if its at the state pen. nor will she ever get any of the other growing fredoms the fine upstanding inmates get. life in prison is a joke!!! now even the inmates say so. the hoods and gettos of america do not bread humans that strive to get out and do better they breed animals that pray on the week just to get props or a couple of $.we can be all PC about it but its the truth. this is never going to change if the rules always get bent to please those that didnt loose the family member and have weak or soft hearts for the guilty.could i pull the rope on a 12 year old myself with out being a part of that girls family? i cant say for sure but id say no. but then again i could not be a cop and only arest a child rapest without shooting or beating him ruthlessly either.that does not mean it shouldnt be done the right way i just coudnt and thats why im a welder.the ? is not what i could do myself the question is what sould be done. and even if i dont think the child rapest should go threw the system that i pay for the lawful way. its still the right thing to do. not every punishment is going to make us feel warm and fuzzy inside but they still need to be done.
     

    Denny347

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    Ok, I guess I'm in the minority here. I know 12 yr olds that know right from wrong but still have no concept of consequences. My 8yr old son is extremely intelligent, I speak to him as he is much older. However mature his cognative skills are, emotionally he is still 8. Sometimes I forget that. I see teens all the time that have the emotional maturity of a toddler. I guess children these days are beyond help. No second chances for them. I will just gracefully bow out of this discussion now considering that I'm the only one arguing this side. We will have to agree to disagree.
     

    eatsnopaste

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    and should someones 12 year old go joy riding in his/her parents car, crash and someone die's...hang em' high...right? Sells some weed his older sister had in her room and the other kid die's...old smokey? Kid gets in a fight as school, hits the other child, he falls over, hits his head and die's....inject the little ****? An eye for an eye...right? Oh wait, that's old testament..new testament has all that forgiveness stuff in it. No it's not apple and oranges' they are all CHILDREN exhibiting childish judgment skills.
     

    JetGirl

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    Probably asleep? You never snuck out as a kid when your parents were sleeping?

    remember when YOU were 12?
    It's a different world. Most kids aren't afraid of their parents' method of correction anymore. If you spank them, it's "child abuse"...if they turn out rotten from not ever feeling a heated seat, then it's your fault for being a bad parent.
    I remember something that happened around '79 or so... some people came to my school and talked to all the classes about not having to do everything your parents said just because they said so and they handed out these little cards with 800 numbers on them and told us all that if we were ever in a situation, we could call that number and they'd come help us by "taking care" of our parents. Now in retrospect, I know they were probably talking about something waaaay different than being told to do your chores, but a couple nights later when I was feeling froggy, I got a little sassy with my dad. I pulled out that number and literally played my card.
    It did not end well.
    I guess the bottom line is that whether or not the dad knew the 12 year old snuck out...maybe the kid did it because he feared no concrete consequence - not if he'd never been taught that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction...usually located in the posterior region.
     

    dburkhead

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    and should someones 12 year old go joy riding in his/her parents car, crash and someone die's...hang em' high...right? Sells some weed his older sister had in her room and the other kid die's...old smokey? Kid gets in a fight as school, hits the other child, he falls over, hits his head and die's....inject the little ****? An eye for an eye...right? Oh wait, that's old testament..new testament has all that forgiveness stuff in it. No it's not apple and oranges' they are all CHILDREN exhibiting childish judgment skills.

    This is what we call a "straw man" and it's a logical fallacy. Do you really not think there is a difference between those "examples" and pointing a gun at someone, demanding their money, then deliberately pulling the trigger when you don't get an answer you like?

    You see, I wouldn't call for the death penalty in any of those even for an adult.
     

    Fargo

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    Ok, I guess I'm in the minority here. I know 12 yr olds that know right from wrong but still have no concept of consequences. My 8yr old son is extremely intelligent, I speak to him as he is much older. However mature his cognative skills are, emotionally he is still 8. Sometimes I forget that. I see teens all the time that have the emotional maturity of a toddler. I guess children these days are beyond help. No second chances for them. I will just gracefully bow out of this discussion now considering that I'm the only one arguing this side. We will have to agree to disagree.


    I'm 100% with Denny on this. Before we get too carried away with wanting to execute 12 year olds, I think you should spend a little time working in or at least observing the nitty gritty of the criminal justice system. It is nothing like tv and there is far more gray than is convenient.

    This was a robbery gone bad, not an execution murder. This would probably be 2nd degree and I doubt capital punishment is even a legal possibility under state law, much less federal. In Indiana I don't think there is even a possibility of waiver into adult court until at least 14-16; I can't remember the exact age off the top of my head.

    I'm not some sort of death penalty activist, I support it; just not in these circumstances. My aversion to executing 12 yr. olds is not squeamishness, it is principle.

    Joe
     

    dburkhead

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    I'm 100% with Denny on this. Before we get too carried away with wanting to execute 12 year olds, I think you should spend a little time working in or at least observing the nitty gritty of the criminal justice system. It is nothing like tv and there is far more gray than is convenient.

    This was a robbery gone bad, not an execution murder. This would probably be 2nd degree and I doubt capital punishment is even a legal possibility under state law, much less federal. In Indiana I don't think there is even a possibility of waiver into adult court until at least 14-16; I can't remember the exact age off the top of my head.

    Actually, it would be what is called "felony murder" in many jurisdictions. (I'd have to dig through the IC code to see what it's called in Indiana--it's been a while since I looked into it.) If a person, any person including possibly one of the felons, is killed during the commission of a felony, then the charge against the felons is "felony murder" (by whatever name in the particular jurisdiction) and the penalty is the same as premeditated murder.

    I'm not some sort of death penalty activist, I support it; just not in these circumstances. My aversion to executing 12 yr. olds is not squeamishness, it is principle.

    The "squeamishness" comment was in response to the "could you push the button" comment. Whether or not a person is able to "push the button" themselves has no bearing whatsoever on the merits of the argument. It's the fallacy of "appeal to emotion" in that most people do have a degree of squeamishness about things.

    And I'll ask you the same thing regarding age that I asked elsewhere: if it's simply the fact that he's 12 years old that's the problem then at what age would it be acceptable? And what makes things acceptable at that age and not one year, or one day, or one hour younger?
     

    Fargo

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    Actually, it would be what is called "felony murder" in many jurisdictions. (I'd have to dig through the IC code to see what it's called in Indiana--it's been a while since I looked into it.) If a person, any person including possibly one of the felons, is killed during the commission of a felony, then the charge against the felons is "felony murder" (by whatever name in the particular jurisdiction) and the penalty is the same as premeditated murder.

    While I suppose it could be charged that way, I don't think that would be appropriate. Felony murder is used to bring in people other than the shooter or to get around the "intentional" aspect of murder when someone is reckless or negligently killed during the commission of a felony.

    In this case, the defendant pulled the trigger during a struggle which is going to put him probably in the 2nd degree murder category unless there is some sort of enhancement based upon the underlying felony of robbery being premeditated. Without researching Michigan's homicide statute's I couldn't say.

    Either way, as I recall from my time living in Michigan, it doesn't even have the death penalty so it is legally off the table. Also, I believe the Supreme Court has ruled that executing minors is unconstitutional so it is doubly off the table from a legal perspective.


    And I'll ask you the same thing regarding age that I asked elsewhere: if it's simply the fact that he's 12 years old that's the problem then at what age would it be acceptable? And what makes things acceptable at that age and not one year, or one day, or one hour younger?

    I'm going to say that a person has to at a baseline be physically developed into an adult, ie: post puberty before the death penalty should be on the table. I also think that you are going to need to allow for some mental and emotional development beyond that. I would say that it should come on the table around 16, but only with a ton of checks and safeguards built in.
     

    dburkhead

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    While I suppose it could be charged that way, I don't think that would be appropriate. Felony murder is used to bring in people other than the shooter or to get around the "intentional" aspect of murder when someone is reckless or negligently killed during the commission of a felony.

    In this case, the defendant pulled the trigger during a struggle which is going to put him probably in the 2nd degree murder category unless there is some sort of enhancement based upon the underlying felony of robbery being premeditated. Without researching Michigan's homicide statute's I couldn't say.

    So let me get this straight. Bringing in others, like, say, the getaway driver in a robbery, allows a charge against that person that carries the same potential penalty as first degree murder is doable, but the person who actually pulls the trigger only gets second degree? That seems to be the consequence of your interpretation of "felony murder."

    Either way, as I recall from my time living in Michigan, it doesn't even have the death penalty so it is legally off the table. Also, I believe the Supreme Court has ruled that executing minors is unconstitutional so it is doubly off the table from a legal perspective.

    Since what is under discussion is, to a large extent, what people think the law should be, that's not particularly germane.

    I'm going to say that a person has to at a baseline be physically developed into an adult, ie: post puberty before the death penalty should be on the table.

    And what in the world has that got to do with it?

    I also think that you are going to need to allow for some mental and emotional development beyond that. I would say that it should come on the table around 16, but only with a ton of checks and safeguards built in.

    What level of mental and emotional development? How do you determine that mental and emotional development? Frankly, I think that if a person actually had the emotional and mental development of the average 16 year old (or 12 year old for that matter) they wouldn't be committing robbery and murder. Which is kind of the point.
     

    agentl074

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    Situations like this have happened before. There have been officer involved shootings with very young perpetrators... which is unfortunate, but it has occurred in the past. The simple fact remains that the subject has lethal capability and has/or will utilize it.

    A conscious decision can be a deadly one....
     

    Fargo

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    So let me get this straight. Bringing in others, like, say, the getaway driver in a robbery, allows a charge against that person that carries the same potential penalty as first degree murder is doable, but the person who actually pulls the trigger only gets second degree? That seems to be the consequence of your interpretation of "felony murder."

    What you are missing is that felony murder is generally a lesser charge than 2nd degree; as I recall it usually sits just above manslaughter.
     

    RachelMarie

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    I'm jumping in late. And I didn't read all the replies.

    That being said....I remember being 12. I remember not having the money for things I wanted. I DID NOT try to rob someone...I did not murder someone. I don't know if I think he should get the death penalty, let the judge do the dirty work. What I do know, is if he is capable of this at a young age...imagine what he is capable at 25...or 26 etc. I believe that even if he doesn't get the death penalty, he is tarnished. He will never live a normal life. He killed someone, and didn't think twice about it. That is something he will always remember. I DO NOT think he should be placed back in society. And it kind of makes me wonder what kind of up-bringing he had. At 12...I knew murder was wrong. I knew robbery was wrong. I also knew you had to work for what you wanted. So why he decided to go kill someone for money rather than mowing a few lawns to earn a few bucks is beyond me. Mentally, He's not all there.

    Interested to hear the outcome. Either way, it's a sad loss of life. Not only the victims...but his own!

    RM
     

    dburkhead

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    What you are missing is that felony murder is generally a lesser charge than 2nd degree; as I recall it usually sits just above manslaughter.

    Um, no. Felony murder carries the same penalty as 1st degree murder. Defense lawyer Bob Ingersoll goes into this in great detail several times in his column "The Law is a ***" His perspective is from that of Ohio law (since that's where he practices) and New York law (since his column is mostly directed at errors in the law in comic books and most of the "big" comic books were set in New York or a reasonable facsimile thereof).

    In Indiana law, Murder is defined as:
    IC 35-42-1-1
    Murder
    Sec. 1. A person who:
    (1) knowingly or intentionally kills another human being;
    (2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct, kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human trafficking, sexual trafficking of a minor, or carjacking;
    (3) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit:
    (A) dealing in or manufacturing cocaine or a narcotic drug (IC 35-48-4-1);
    (B) dealing in or manufacturing methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.1);
    (C) dealing in a schedule I, II, or III controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-2);
    (D) dealing in a schedule IV controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-3); or
    (E) dealing in a schedule V controlled substance; or
    (4) knowingly or intentionally kills a fetus that has attained viability (as defined in IC 16-18-2-365);
    commits murder, a felony.
    As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.25; P.L.326-1987, SEC.2; P.L.296-1989, SEC.1; P.L.230-1993, SEC.2; P.L.261-1997, SEC.3; P.L.17-2001, SEC.15; P.L.151-2006, SEC.16; P.L.173-2006, SEC.51; P.L.1-2007, SEC.230.
    Note that Section 2 defines what is often called "felony murder." If one kills another human being in the course of any of those crimes, one commits murder.

    As far as sentence is concerned we have the following:

    IC 35-50-2-3
    Murder
    Sec. 3. (a) A person who commits murder shall be imprisoned for a fixed term of between forty-five (45) and sixty-five (65) years, with the advisory sentence being fifty-five (55) years. In addition, the person may be fined not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000).
    (b) Notwithstanding subsection (a), a person who was:
    (1) at least eighteen (18) years of age at the time the murder was committed may be sentenced to:
    (A) death; or
    (B) life imprisonment without parole; and
    (2) at least sixteen (16) years of age but less than eighteen (18) years of age at the time the murder was committed may be sentenced to life imprisonment without parole;
    under section 9 of this chapter unless a court determines under IC 35-36-9 that the person is an individual with mental retardation.
    As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.8. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.116; P.L.332-1987, SEC.1; P.L.250-1993, SEC.1; P.L.164-1994, SEC.2; P.L.158-1994, SEC.5; P.L.2-1995, SEC.128; P.L.148-1995, SEC.4; P.L.117-2002, SEC.1; P.L.71-2005, SEC.6; P.L.99-2007, SEC.212.
    Note that there is no distinction between the different "categories" of murder described above. Indiana law says 18 and up for the death sentence to be "on the table" but for purposes of considering whether "felony murder" is considered a "lesser" charge than "first degree" murder, I think the above pretty thoroughly disabuses that notion.

    In Indiana law (at least, and per Ingersoll's columns, it's pretty common in US law in general), If you kill someone in the commission of a robbery, you commit murder the same as first degree, premeditated murder. Perhaps the courts would be more likely to give the 45 year minimum sentence rather than the death penalty in that case but no such distinction is in the law itself.
     
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