+1 State Trooper, -1 state Trooper

[femurphy77]

Ordered you to turn over your property for a "check"? AFTER you produced your LTCH?

You'll be filing a complaint, I assume?

+1

 

[Colt556]

I just think it's crazy to be handling loaded weapons on the side of the road. The owner doesn't know the cops experience with his particular weapon and the cops are really taking a chance that they won't get shot by the owner of said weapon. Not saying a LTCH will shoot him/her but it could happen. Or a cop could use that as an excuse to shoot the citizen. Who knows what might happen out there. If a LTCH is produced it should stop there IMO. Somebody is going to get hurt soon and then the shizz will fly!

 

[9mmfan]

Add the ISP to the growing list of agencies that need to a refresher course in the proper method of dealing with a LTCH holder.

 

[bluewraith]

Add the ISP to the growing list of agencies that need to a refresher course in the proper method of dealing with a LTCH holder.

The list would be smaller if we just listed the ones that *do* know the proper procedure.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I just think it's crazy to be handling loaded weapons on the side of the road. The owner doesn't know the cops experience with his particular weapon and the cops are really taking a chance that they won't get shot by the owner of said weapon. Not saying a LTCH will shoot him/her but it could happen. Or a cop could use that as an excuse to shoot the citizen. Who knows what might happen out there. If a LTCH is produced it should stop there IMO. Somebody is going to get hurt soon and then the shizz will fly!

Agreed. Absent an articulable and immediate need to remove a firearm from its safe place and then monkey with it as in this case seems so, very unsafe and is begging for a mishap.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

But I bet you would've got a ticket if you said no to his request .

I would gladly accept the correct infraction for something I did, than submit to a breach of my rights for something I didn't.

 

[Hornett]

Think of it this way.
Assume there are 20 witnesses across the street in full view your traffic stop.
The officer asks for your EDC.
Probably no one heard the request but you.
If they were that close the officer would tell them to step back, but I digress.
The officer waits until your EDC is in plain sight and them pulls out his gun and executes you.
All of the 20 witnesses would testify that you were reaching for a gun when the officer shot you dead.
And that is just one of the reasons that allowances are made for protection from illegal search and seizure in the constitution.

Legal Disclaimer:
This post is not to be taken as LEO bashing. I like the police. I think they are public servants that, for the most part, do an excellent job. Handling loaded guns in public is just dumb and needs to be called out.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

someone once said something about refusing to accept the EDC back from the officer, which will then make them jump thru more legal hoops to get it back to you than they bargained for.

Can someone cover that again...

Jack, I'm working from my phone so I can't post the IC reference, but essentially the code specifies a very particular methodology that must be followed for the lawful return of a firearm to its owner. It requires the seizing officer to submit to the court, in writing, an affidavit attesting to certain things and it has a strict time fence that it allows for that to take place. IIRC, it also specifies penalties to the officer for not complying. When I get home I'll look it up. It would be a ballsy move, but I don't recall anyone posting here how it worked in practice. I think someone over at opencarry.org posted an AAR about going that route though.

Correct for the most part, I need to get busy or else I could find and post it...

 

[Bunnykid68]

Think of it this way.
Assume there are 20 witnesses across the street in full view your traffic stop.
The officer asks for your EDC.
Probably no one heard the request but you.
If they were that close the officer would tell them to step back, but I digress.
The officer waits until your EDC is in plain sight and them pulls out his gun and executes you.
All of the 20 witnesses would testify that you were reaching for a gun when the officer shot you dead.
And that is just one of the reasons that allowances are made for protection from illegal search and seizure in the constitution.

Legal Disclaimer:
This post is not to be taken as LEO bashing. I like the police. I think they are public servants that, for the most part, do an excellent job. Handling loaded guns in public is just dumb and needs to be called out.

There was an officer in Canton, Ohio who had this very attitude

 

[CPT Nervous]

I Got the EDC back with clip out and unloaded, bullets n hand.

Where is everyone getting clip-fed handguns? Aren't those a little out of date? I would suggest getting a modern autoloader. I'm surprised the ISP Trooper knew how to handle something like that!

 

[stephen87]

The dude cut you some slack on the ticket. No harm no foul.

No harm doesn't necessarily mean no foul. State v Richardson (I believe that's the one, still trying to get these cases down) rules that once a LTCH is presented, all questioning about firearms is to cease. This officer went against that and should be held to the same standards as every other officer. Unless he could articulate to a judge why he disarmed him, he should be held accountable. The only reasons for someone to be disarmed is if they presented a threat to themselves of another individual.

 

[Rookie]

IC 35-47-14-3

ETA: had to double check since it was from memory...

 

[pirate]

Next time exert your rights. Let us know how it goes. INGO needs a good guinea pig before the rest of us arm chairs jump in.

 

[stephen87]

Guinea pig for what? There is already case law and an Indiana code for everything discussed here.

 

[coltaceguy]

I can say this is VERY TRUE.

I was stopped about 3 years ago for speeding, 49 in a 40(didn't know it went from 55 to 40). It was a state cop, I produced my license and LTCH, he immediately made me get out of my car, and disarmed me, taking my gun with him back to his car instructing me to put my hands on my car and not move while he "ran my gun".

Same thing as OP, got a warning, and he handed my gun back unloaded, told me not to reload it until he left.

 

[Jack Burton]

Here’s the code (thanks, Rookie)… it looks to me as if we can simply refuse to accept the firearm back and the LEO will have to then explain to the court why he took the gun away from us.

As added by P.L.1-2006, SEC.537. IC 35-47-14-3 Warrantless seizure of firearm from individual believed to be dangerous Sec. 3. (a) If a law enforcement officer seizes a firearm from an individual whom the law enforcement officer believes to be dangerous without obtaining a warrant, the law enforcement officer shall submit to the circuit or superior court having jurisdiction over the individual believed to be dangerous a written statement under oath or affirmation describing the basis for the law enforcement officer's belief that the individual is dangerous. (b) The court shall review the written statement submitted under subsection (a). If the court finds that probable cause exists to believe that the individual is dangerous, the court shall order the law enforcement agency having custody of the firearm to retain the firearm. If the court finds that there is no probable cause to believe that the individual is dangerous, the court shall order the law enforcement agency having custody of the firearm to return the firearm to the individual. (c) This section does not authorize a law enforcement officer to perform a warrantless search or seizure if a warrant would otherwise be required.

It will mean doing without that particular firearm for a few weeks, but I think if a LEO has to go thru this even once, he and most of his mates are going to think very hard before they do it again.

What would be the proper way to refuse to accept it, though. Roll up the window and not allow him to pass it to you. I wonder what would happen if he then just puts it on your roof and walks away. Is he at fault for any loss if you just drive away and let it fall to the road?

 

[wilianknow]

I have a good story to tell. Was stopped by IPD last friday night. I handed him my DL and LCH. He asked me if i was packing and told him ya just my Glock 22. Then him told me one of my headlights where out and have a nice night.

 

[stephen87]

That's a good question, Jack. I wonder if TFT, Kirk, or another lawyer on here can answer that one for us.

Tagged.

 

[Compatriot G]

As I have posted before, DO NOT keep your LTCH under your driver's license or where they can see it when you open your wallet.

 

[88GT]

What would be the proper way to refuse to accept it, though. Roll up the window and not allow him to pass it to you. I wonder what would happen if he then just puts it on your roof and walks away. Is he at fault for any loss if you just drive away and let it fall to the road?

I've been asking myself that same question as I've read through this thread. If ever there were a time to have video rolling...