AAR: Tom Givens / Rangemaster Advanced Pistol Skills in Nappanee, IN 2014-06-28

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  • Jackson

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    Tom Givens is an instructor from whom I’ve been interested in taking a class for some time. He runs the Rangemaster training school in Memphis, TN. The school is host to the annual Rangemaster Tactical Conference and Polite Society Match which brings in big-name trainers from around the country. People like Craig Douglas, John Farnam, Massad Ayoob, and many others come to the conference to teach and to learn from each other. Tom has also documented over 60 Rangemaster alumni who’ve been involved in shootings. Of those students, only 2 (I think) lost their fight. (Mr. Givens considers these two cases to be forfeits because the students were not carrying at the time.) Tom has put some of that information together in his Lessons from the Street video, which I found very informative. He’s also studied case reports and witness statements related to over 300 plain-clothes law enforcement shootings (DEA, FBI, etc). It is this study, the track record of his students, and his reputation as a trainer which motivated me to train with him.

    The Basics

    School: Rangemaster
    Course: Advanced Pistol Skills
    Date: June 28, 2014
    Duration: 8 Hours
    Location: Nappanee Conservation Club
    Instructor: Tom Givens
    Assistant Instructor: Lynn Givens
    Students: 17 (16 men, 1 woman) including the following INGO members: Cedartop, Jackson, Jason, jblomenberg16, Tinman, VERT, wiuteke.
    Cost: $250.00
    Stated Objective: There was no official objective, but in Tom’s intro speech he indicated the class was about “getting hits quickly” and “learning how to work the trigger”.

    Related Threads

    1. Rangemaster - Advanced Pistol & Defensive Shotgun June 28/29 - Nappanee, IN
    2. Tom Givens - Advanced Pistol AAR - Nappanee Indiana

    Summary

    I would call this class an in-depth treatment on the fundamentals of marksmanship with selected defensive topics. The class consisted of roughly 25% lecture and 75% range time. Around half of the lecture topics were speed or marksmanship related, with the other half covering the nature of armed citizen gun fights with tactics and techniques generally used to prevail. Through the course of the class there were four or five scored marksmanship tests, as well as several timed drills. The class was primarily about getting good hits in the prescribed amount of time, or faster.

    Details

    Classroom - Morning Lecture:
    We kicked off the day in the classroom at 0900 with introductions by the instructors. Tom has 25 years of Law enforcement experience in one of the highest-crime cities in the country. He is also a successful IDPA and IPSC competitor, having been involved with both organizations almost from their inception. Tom brings both competitive and practical experience to the classroom and the influence from both can be seen in his lectures and his drills/tests. His wife, Lynn Givens, would be the assistant instructor for the day. She came to the defensive aspects of firearms in a very personal way, seeking training after threats from a stalker. Since then, I believe they said she has attended over a thousand hours of professional firearms training in addition to significant teaching and training experience with Rangemaster. She also heads the Rangemaster women’s training programs.

    After introductions, Tom moved on to safety and the implications of carrying a gun. A brief PowerPoint presentation accompanied the safety lecture. “Safety is about living with a gun, it is not about range rules”, he said. It is a lifestyle and the rules apply everywhere. The four rules were discussed and demonstrated. Tom is not a fan of cold ranges, and the two absolutes of muzzle discipline and trigger finger discipline were thoroughly demonstrated.
    Beyond safety, the primary topic of the morning lecture was marksmanship. The importance of fast and accurate marksmanship was explained. We must “hit quickly” and “hit with every shot”. Speed was the second theme for this lecture. Tom explained that “the most precious commodity in a gun fight is time”. He provided a thorough treatment of grip, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, and follow-through. Tom prefers a thumbs-high grip as opposed to the currently-popular thumbs-forward grip (which is so prevalent in practical pistol competition). He had a pretty well-thought reasoning for his preferences. He also explained the majority of combat-distance marksmanship issues are related to poor trigger management. Trigger control would be a major theme in this class.

    Range - Marksmanship:
    Around 1030 we all headed out to the range. The range for this course was set up in front of a small, covered shelter area with shooting benches. There was about 15-17 yards of total range distance from the shelter to the targets. The class would generally work as one, large relay for most drills. So all students were shooting at the same time. This made for relatively little down-time and kept the pace of the class fairly brisk.

    We started off with some dry-fire exercises. The very first drill was the ol’ sit something (a piece of brass in this case) on top of the front site and see if you can dry fire 5 times in a row without it falling off. (For the striker-fired pistol shooters, a partner would replace the brass after each round so the student could reset the pistol. Two additional dry-fire drills involved watching the trigger and watching the sights.

    The second set of drills were slow-fire bullseye shooting. These were done on what I believe is an NRA 50 foot bullseye competition target. We started out around 4 yards with the goal of keeping every round in the very center circle. We were instructed to focus on trigger management. I didn’t specifically note it, but I believe this was the first of our scored tests. It appeared one purpose for doing this was to allow Tom to see what he was working with on the line. After the slow-fire we changed over to FBI QIT targets to work on shooting speed (splits). Tom gave a short on-range lecture on shooting cadence and rhythm and how the sound might help diagnose your shooting issues. We fired various strings working the split times down with each set.

    Range – Reloads:
    Around 1145 we pulled back to the shelter for a short discussion on reloading methods. Tom talked to us about speed reloads, emergency reloads, and tactical reloads, describing the methods he prefers. We were encouraged to reload whenever we could in a real situation. Tom is not a fan of the tactical reload, and gave us several good reasons why as he explained its history.

    Back on the range we were met with a target displaying five circles 3-4 inches in diameter. With this target each circle had its own drill. Dots one through three were involved various shooting from the ready and also from the holster. This would be the first holster work of the day. Dots four and five were reloading drills. We worked both “speed” and “emergency” reloads. After the reloading drills we took a 40 minute lunch break.

    Range – Tests:
    When we got back to the range after lunch it was test time. We conducted two scored drills back-to-back. Both of the drills were performed on a B8, 25 yard pistol bullseye target. The first drill, which I believe he called the “1,2,3 drill” started around four yards and progressed back to around 15 yards. There were 25 rounds fired for a maximum score of 250. The second drill started back at the 15ish yard line and progressed forward to the 4 yard line. This drill was 30 rounds and had some time limits to get all of the shots on the target. The final string also included one reload. The maximum score was 300.

    Classroom – Afternoon Lecture:
    Around 1400 we moved to the classroom for 40 minute discussion about Tom’s research and Rangemaster student’s experiences with real gunfights. In addition to the 60+ Rangemaster students who have been in concealed carry fights, he has also pulled together over 300 reports of plain-clothes law enforcement (DEA, FBI, etc) shootings that were substantially similar to confrontations the average citizen might have. Many of these LE shootings were not necessarily in the line of duty. He talked about a few instances where agents were carjacked on a stakeout or robbed coming off shift. The main difference between these LE shootings and those of the average citizen is, even after it is determined to be justifiable, the LE shootings are still thoroughly investigated, tracked, and reported. So there is a larger body of data from which to draw conclusions. Tom explained many of those conclusion in this lecture.

    One of the first things he told us was not to confuse “typical” with “average” when discussing gunfight data. Averages don’t mean much when discussing shootings. If you have two shootings, one involving 3 shots at 3 yards, and the other involving 27 shots at 27 yards, the average (15 shots at 15 yards) doesn’t tell us much about those situations. However, after some study, Tom has pulled together some common things that are typically seen in these type of situations. Some of those he discussed include typical engagement distances, probability of multiple attackers, likely locations to be attacked, typical motivations and scenarios of attackers, etc.

    After discussing some of those findings, students were given a glimpse in to the “typical” life of a career criminal and how their path in life (and therefore, their mindset) likely differs significantly from that of the law-abiding, armed citizen. Tom told us about some interesting justice department statistics that indicate the likelihood of being the victim of a violent crime is much greater than most people would expect. We should expect it to happen and not be surprised when it does. Make up our minds to be ready, and just do what needs to be done.

    To conclude this lecture, Tom relayed the experiences of one Rangemaster student who was involved in three armed robberies as a convenience store clerk (one involving armed resistance). Along with the story were still photos from the security camera which Tom used to reinforce his conclusion from the situation. The student prevailed by staying calm, moving off the line of force, and applying quick and effective marksmanship to the situation. Those lessons would be the impetus for the range session following the lecture.

    Range:
    The first drills conducted after we returned to the range involved side-stepping off the line of force, drawing, and shooting the target. We started off just stepping, added drawing and shooting, then added reloads (moving when we weren’t shooting). After incorporating the simple movement we progressed to one-handed shooting. Tom took the class aside to demonstrate his preferred method and stance for one-handed shooting. He also demonstrated his preferred method for transitioning the gun between hands. These exercises lead us in to the next scored test. This test was performed on the Rangemaster Q target and involved moving off the line, drawing and shooting the target at various distances between 4 and 15 yards. This test also included strong-hand and weak-hand-only shooting at the 4ish yard distance. The test was 30 rounds. The highest possible score was 150 points.

    After a quick break, we returned to the range to find a target with 6 shapes (two squares, two circles, and two triangles) with the numbers 1-6 in them. These targets were used to introduce some target recognition and thinking to the exercises. As you might expect, we did drills where the instructor called out numbers and students shot that number of rounds in to the shape with that number. If he called a shape, we shot those shapes, in numerical order, with the number of rounds in the shape. Tom incorporated a little competition in to these drills by pairing us up on the line so we’d have a partner to watch. The non-shooting partner was to pull the shooter off the line if they missed, were the last shooter to make a shot, or shot the targets out of order. The last shooter on the line was the winner. The second drill on these targets was the “casino drill”. For this drill we set up three magazines with 7 rounds each, 21 rounds total. We shot the shapes in numerical order putting 1 round in shape one, 2 rounds in two, and so on up to 6 rounds in shape six. The drill went through two reloads and had a maximum time of 21 seconds. Most students finished more quickly. Some did not finish in that timeframe.

    The final topic of the day was malfunctions. Tom demonstrated a couple of malfunctions that could be caused by something blocking the slide from fully cycling. This demonstration also included an explanation of the primer manufacturing process and its construction. Apparently primers can be damaged or broken in to pieces due to rough handling or vibration (or even chambering the round several times). We worked type 1 (failure to fire) and type 2 (failure to eject) malfunctions with dummy rounds and fired brass. Tom demonstrated the remedial action for these malfunctions, which is the same technique for both types. He appears to prefer simple, non-diagnostic, and universally applicable techniques.

    The final topic flowed in to the final drill which was scored by time. The drill was shot on the Rangemaster Q target at about 4 yards. It included a moving off the line, drawing from the holster, a malfunction clearance, and a reload. It was basically everything we’d done that day rolled in to one. The best time of the day was just over 7 seconds, shot by Tinman.

    Thoughts and Conclusions


    My first opinion on the class really depends on the definition of “advanced”. VERT and I have discussed this in the past, both on the board and off. We have differing opinions on what is considered advanced. I had initially attempted to define it, or to compare my opinion with VERT’s. However, that didn’t add much to the AAR and so it was removed. Perhaps he’ll jump in on the thread and we can hash it in the subsequent posts.
    Based on my definition, I’m not sure I would have called the course “advanced”. It certainly wasn’t basic, but most of the speed and marksmanship drills/tests were not out of reach for me. I do not consider myself an “advanced” shooter. The line was fairly static and required gun handling not too demanding. It probably requires a similar level of skill as Coach’s Intermediate Pistol.

    Even so, as Cedartop observed during Mike Pannone’s advanced pistol class, there are some students who don’t belong in any kind of “advanced” class. If you don’t have well-developed trigger finger and muzzle discipline, you don’t belong in an advanced pistol class. If you have to be reminded several times to keep your finger out of the trigger guard (especially while reholstering), you probably don’t belong in an “advanced” class. If you cannot put 9 of 10 shots in a three-inch circle at four or five yards when under no significant time pressure, you don’t belong in an “advanced” pistol class. If it’s likely you’ll accidentally touch one off when someone tells you just to pull the slack out of the trigger (on a glock) but not fire, you probably don’t belong in an advanced pistol class. If you don’t have a consistent and well-practice method of gripping the pistol, an “advanced” pistol class is not the place to come learn how. Yet all of these things were issues in this class.

    Fortunately, this class did not place too great a demand on student’s safe gun handling. There was no moving around other students, or objects, or really much movement at all. Everything was done on a relatively static line. There was some holster work, but not as much as I expected. There were a few students on the line who I’d have been a bit concerned to see in other classes I’ve taken.

    Would I recommend the class and the instructor? I sure would. This class was about learning to apply the fundamentals consistently, and under some time pressure. I think the course was well-suited to meet that objective. Tom’s lectures left students with a good understanding of the fundamentals and each of his drills had clear purpose that tied back to the course objectives. The marksmanship tests made it clear where you stood, and how you were progressing through the class.

    Tom’s lectures about the nature of citizen-involved defensive shootings were very informative. It was interesting to listen to the combined experience of multiple defensive shootings that are completely applicable to my situation as a gun-carrying average guy. I wish there was more time in this class for him to expand on those topics.

    It is very likely that I’ll be training with Tom again.
     
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    VERT

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    :( Ouch! Called out by Jackson. :laugh:

    First off I would consider Jackson and Jason to be "Advanced" Shooters, certainly more squared away with martial gun handling then I am. (Let's get that out of the way upfront.) This course incorporated about as much as could be done on a square range or in the case of Memphis an indoor range. Now I will admit upfront that I am a big fan of Givens. I really appreciate his K.I.S.S. type of approach. I am developing the opinion that "Advanced" shooters are people who have mastered the essential fundamentals to the point that they are automatic. This course outlined those fundamentals. If a person has already mastered the material then there really is not a lot of reason to take the course. Or any course for that matter.

    No time was spent on how to operate the weapons or on the drawstroke/presentation. Students were expected to be able to go to the line and run their gun. Safety was covered which is ALWAYS a good thing to do. Shooting fundamentals was covered because quite honestly some of us needed it. I know my trigger control has suffered lately and I needed a tuneup. (Too much target hosing, i.e. USPSA) Otherwise I would ventured to say that 95% of people carrying pistols would have a hard time meeting the objectives of the drills. Keep in mind that Givens works with the general public as well as LEOs and as such I am sure is exposed to a wide cross section of skill levels. Also being a LEO/FBI instructor I am sure that Givens is used to developing tests and standards.

    Overall the group I saw on Saturday were all very good shooters. Truthfully I only noticed one individual that was having some trouble, but I will admit that I could only see a little ways up or down the line. Tom was getting a bit aggravated with the guy because he would not take his finger off the trigger and decock the gun. As a result I started engaging my safety at the ready position (because I am not keen on the idea of a Givens ass chewing). Lynn gave me a little coaching that I could indeed leave the safety off and maintain my firing grip. Tom shared some pointers with me while we checked targets. After that I can say that my accuracy improved and life was good (at least acceptable) except for my really bad habit of not getting my magazines seated. Even earned a couple "good job" from Tom, who is not quick to give compliments.
     

    Jackson

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    :( Ouch! Called out by Jackson. :laugh:

    Definitely not called out in a negatiive way. I thought your point of view was worth hearing and the discussion would bring more value on the board than tucked away in our PMs. It follows right along with the discussions in the Pannone thread about people who dont belong in an advanced class.

    I'll come back and talk about the rest when I am on something with a keyboard.
     
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    jason

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    Even so, as Cedartop observed during Mike Pannone’s advanced pistol class, there are some students who don’t belong in any kind of “advanced” class. If you don’t have well-developed trigger finger and muzzle discipline, you don’t belong in an advanced pistol class. If you have to be reminded several times to keep your finger out of the trigger guard (especially while reholstering), you probably don’t belong in an “advanced” class. If you cannot put 9 of 10 shots in a three-inch circle at four or five yards when under no significant time pressure, you don’t belong in an “advanced” pistol class. If it’s likely you’ll accidentally touch one off when someone tells you just to pull the slack out of the trigger (on a glock) but not fire, you probably don’t belong in an advanced pistol class. If you don’t have a consistent and well-practice method of gripping the pistol, an “advanced” pistol class is not the place to come learn how. Yet all of these things were issues in this class.

    Some of these comments remind me of the thread on here regarding proficiency.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    Great AAR Jackson. Great meeting you (and the other INGOers) and shooting during the class. As I mentioned in my AAR, one of the benefits of this type of class is learning from your classmates. Seeing the smoothness that you, Cedartop, and many others had during the drills just emphasized that I have a long way to go in my development.

    On the "Advanced" debate, I'll add a few comments for the sake of discussion. Given my training resume, this class was the most "advanced" I've taken. As VERT said, marksmanship and good gun-handling was expected, and we didn't spend much time (if any) warming up. We basically came right to the range and went right into shooting. I'll admit that I was pretty nervous on the line at first, especially seeing some of the initial groups people were shooting vs. mine. Then I realized that the point of me taking the class was not for me to show how good I already was, but for me to get better.

    I'll come right out an own up to touching a round off before the fire command during some of the initial trigger pulls. Interestingly enough it wasn't that I didn't know where the break in the trigger was, it was that I did a poor job of listening to instructions. I drew, found my front sight on target, and squeezed the trigger to take up the slack. I had made an incorrect assumption that we would then touch off the shot vs. holding for the firing command. The result was the same, a "bang" before the command to fire (which resulted in a nice hit in the dead center of the target). No matter the cause, that is a mistake that an "Advanced" student shouldn't make, and is no more excusable that the comments about said shooter that struggled to safely de-cock his pistol at the completion of a drill. (I honestly thought Tom was going to kick him out during the afternoon session...)

    The other thing that I would consider advanced about the class is that the drills were described, and then the students were expected to execute the drills for score and for time, vs. having someone give a demonstration of how to do it, everyone doing a practice run, etc. And, to a very large extent, those on the line were able to do that. It also pushed several students past their abilities, as we all saw during the timed casino drill. Students that during the group session had the right number of hits on target, suddenly put too many or too few rounds on target, or missed targets given the added stress of the clock and of all of the other eyeballs on them.

    This class stretched me and helped identify some deficiencies in my shooting that I'm now able to work on and correct. Things such as moving during the draw stroke and during reloading, making sure that my follow up shots are quick AND accurate, and making sure that my index point is safe. My index point prior to the class was the touch switch on my TLR-1. While outside of the trigger guard, this is also close enough to the trigger guard that if my finger slipped off, it could go into the trigger guard and engage the trigger. What I thought was safe, was not as safe as indexing along the frame or on the ejection port. Heck, I even found out why I tend to shoot my glock to the left. My sights are fine, it is that I rest my trigger finger "bicep" on the frame and push everything left as I squeeze.

    I agree with your closing statement...

    It is very likely that I’ll be training with Tom again.
     

    wiuteke

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    Jblomenberg16, that's exactly the right attitude "Then I realized that the point of me taking the class was not for me to show how good I already was, but for me to get better." It takes a while for most people to learn that. I know it did me.

    I was on the far left (for the class, not politically ;) ). I never knew about the issue you and Vert note above. I hope whoever that is get that sorted out quickly.
     

    jason

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    We basically came right to the range and went right into shooting.

    The other thing that I would consider advanced about the class is that the drills were described, and then the students were expected to execute the drills for score and for time, vs. having someone give a demonstration of how to do it, everyone doing a practice run, etc. And, to a very large extent, those on the line were able to do that. It also pushed several students past their abilities, as we all saw during the timed casino drill. Students that during the group session had the right number of hits on target, suddenly put too many or too few rounds on target, or missed targets given the added stress of the clock and of all of the other eyeballs on them.

    I think that you're hitting the nail on the head there as far as an advanced class goes. Demonstrating a set of skills and showing ownership of those skills on-demand AND under some stress. In this case it was in front of peers and on a timer.

    ...shooter that struggled to safely de-cock his pistol at the completion of a drill. (I honestly thought Tom was going to kick him out during the afternoon session...)

    He was pulled off the line once in the afternoon session, and I figured that was it for him. He was not de-cocking before reholstering, had a lingering trigger finger when not on target, and an abnormal support hand grip that may eventually lead to injury if he doesn't heed Lynn's advice.
     

    wiuteke

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    I think that you're hitting the nail on the head there as far as an advanced class goes. Demonstrating a set of skills and showing ownership of those skills on-demand AND under some stress. In this case it was in front of peers and on a timer.

    I agree that the ownership of said skills is partly what would classify a person as "advanced". I believe there is an element of mindset involved too. Especially when it comes to defensive shooting. Tom touched on the topic a bit but there are other experts in this field. It's not just about being able to make good hits under a little pressure. It's knowing when a threat is real and it's time to "go". Otherwise, we are just talking about skills and not the real world application of them. Back to skills for a bit, I was expecting some additional ones such as one handed malfunctions but, with the overall skill level of the class and the one day time slot, there just wasn't enough time in the day.
     

    VERT

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    Thought I would post this as it somehow seems relevant. Givens is very big on being able to deliver accurate shots. We can make this harder by having our peers watch, adding a timer, or increasing the distance. I was able to take part of a day off yesterday to go to the range and test some pistol/magazine combinations and to re-zero an AimPoint on my AR. Since I already had a target setup at distance I decided to try out some of Tom's coaching. So I tossed the pistol up and pressed off 8 shots in one string. Front sight, press, reset, repeat using about a 1 second cadence. I was pleasantly surprised by the results. The target was a measured 55 yards from where I was standing.

    No I get to go to a USPSA NO match this weekend and return to the bad habit of target hosing.

    photo_zpsea29c790.jpg
     

    ViperJock

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    Wow. Very thorough guys. Don't get me wrong I love any class no matter whether I learn to be better or learn what to avoid. From each of my favorite classes I pick up maybe a handful of things I don't know before that change my perspective or dramatically shift my paradigm in some way.

    did that happen for you at this class? If so what was your previous perspective or habit, what did you learn/how did it change? Anything from SA to grip. Was there an Aha! Moment?

    Thinking about the concept of a class having a lot of students in fights; realizing that guys who teach LE are gonna have students in shootings, at recent class I was at (TDI) one of the instructors said he'd like TDI to be known as the school that didn't have any students in shootings, because their SA kept them clear. Obviously, things happen. I like this philosophy though. Sorry-grammar lol.
     

    VERT

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    Wow. Very thorough guys. Don't get me wrong I love any class no matter whether I learn to be better or learn what to avoid. From each of my favorite classes I pick up maybe a handful of things I don't know before that change my perspective or dramatically shift my paradigm in some way.

    did that happen for you at this class? If so what was your previous perspective or habit, what did you learn/how did it change? Anything from SA to grip. Was there an Aha! Moment?

    Thinking about the concept of a class having a lot of students in fights; realizing that guys who teach LE are gonna have students in shootings, at recent class I was at (TDI) one of the instructors said he'd like TDI to be known as the school that didn't have any students in shootings, because their SA kept them clear. Obviously, things happen. I like this philosophy though. Sorry-grammar lol.

    That will be tough for RangeMaster students. Memphis, TN is Mogadishu on the Mississippi.

    No Ah Ha moments for me really. The material was the same as what I experienced during Givens three day instructor development course. I did enjoy seeing how it would all be put together. I did benefit from the coaching. Even though I know better I still tend to revert back to my bad habits.
     

    cedartop

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    Wow. Very thorough guys. Don't get me wrong I love any class no matter whether I learn to be better or learn what to avoid. From each of my favorite classes I pick up maybe a handful of things I don't know before that change my perspective or dramatically shift my paradigm in some way.

    did that happen for you at this class? If so what was your previous perspective or habit, what did you learn/how did it change? Anything from SA to grip. Was there an Aha! Moment?

    To my way of thinking you shouldn't be changing something drastic with every bit of new information you get or you will never get anywhere. Everyone is going to have a little different perspective on how to do things. At some point you have to accept one of them and work it to a reaction level.

    Thinking about the concept of a class having a lot of students in fights; realizing that guys who teach LE are gonna have students in shootings, at recent class I was at (TDI) one of the instructors said he'd like TDI to be known as the school that didn't have any students in shootings, because their SA kept them clear. Obviously, things happen. I like this philosophy though. Sorry-grammar lol.

    That is a great goal and ideally that is the way it will work. If you could guarantee this we wouldn't need to train with guns at all.
     

    ViperJock

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    That is a great goal and ideally that is the way it will work. If you could guarantee this we wouldn't need to train with guns at all.

    Right. I don't think anyone really expects to achieve this ideal 100%. I think it's just to have the mindset "I can deal with the fight if it happens, but I'll do my best to avoid it. All too often I think gun owners are itching for the fight which IMO is wrong and dangerous.

    Also so I agree that at some point you have to choose something and go with it. I'm talking more about something you may not have previously learned that immediately impacts the way you do something for the better.
     

    Jackson

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    :( Ouch! Called out by Jackson. :laugh:

    First off I would consider Jackson and Jason to be "Advanced" Shooters, certainly more squared away with martial gun handling then I am. (Let's get that out of the way upfront.)

    Great AAR Jackson. Great meeting you (and the other INGOers) and shooting during the class. As I mentioned in my AAR, one of the benefits of this type of class is learning from your classmates. Seeing the smoothness that you, Cedartop, and many others had during the drills just emphasized that I have a long way to go in my development.


    You two were shooting as good or better than either of us. I believe VERT out-scored me on a couple of drills. I felt good just to keep up with the two of you.


    The more I think about it, the more I am not sure of my definition of "advanced". Coming in to the class I was expecting higher standards for speed and accuracy. This may be due to hearing that Tom Givens is big on scored standards. I'd read some AARs of his instructor classes and it sounded like the bar was pretty high. So, this class being titled "advanced", I assumed the standards would be even more strict. I came in expecting to struggle to keep up. I was surprised to find myself somewhere in the middle of the pack. There were a few people who seemed to struggle more than expected with the early accuracy standards. We were inside of 15 yards for the whole class.

    One influence on my perception of advanced is the people I tend to shoot with, or have seen shoot. When I'm not shooting by myself I'm generally shooting in a class, training session, or competition full of other fairly competent shooters. For example, I go to some of Coach's league shoots and shoot with a pack of USPSA M, A, and B class shooters. I keep up okay, but I'm definitely not the top of the pack. (I am not really a competitor but it certainly gives a handy method of scoring and ranking.) So the guys I see as advanced are people like Coach, CB45, and those other Master Class guys who are fast and accurate on demand. Whatever I'm doing, they are doing 40% faster and much more consistently.

    Another thing I think of when considering the definition of "advanced" is what I consider "basic" skills. In the defensive context, the most basic skill is safetly accessing the pistol, maintaining trigger finger and muzzle discipline, being aware of the foregound and background, and placing the bullet where it needs to go on demand, and doing it fast enough to make the effort worthwhile. Those skills are the baseline for defensive pistol work. Those were the skills we worked in this class. So that may be why I wouldn't have called it "advanced".
     

    VERT

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    Jackson you would b surprised the number of people who have trouble with those basic skills you outlined. A very close friend of mine invited CraigH and I to attend some ILEA training with sim guns. At the end of the evening he pulled us aside and commented on how the other officers helping with the training were shocked by our gun handling and ability to move and shoot. The young officers in the training class had to be continually reminded to watch their muzzles and would stop flat footed in the middle of a hall or room to shoot it out. One guys even managed to shoot his partner in the back.
     

    Jackson

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    Wow. Very thorough guys. Don't get me wrong I love any class no matter whether I learn to be better or learn what to avoid. From each of my favorite classes I pick up maybe a handful of things I don't know before that change my perspective or dramatically shift my paradigm in some way.

    did that happen for you at this class? If so what was your previous perspective or habit, what did you learn/how did it change? Anything from SA to grip. Was there an Aha! Moment?

    Thinking about the concept of a class having a lot of students in fights; realizing that guys who teach LE are gonna have students in shootings, at recent class I was at (TDI) one of the instructors said he'd like TDI to be known as the school that didn't have any students in shootings, because their SA kept them clear. Obviously, things happen. I like this philosophy though. Sorry-grammar lol.

    I didn't have any significant "ah hah" moments. I thought some of his ideas about the grip were interesting and I may examine them on my own. I attempted to use his preferred grip throughout the class. I didn't see any significant differences in my shooting and found it uncomfortable because my usual grip is so much a habit. I'll still play with it a bit. I think some of the concepts have merit and I want to test them.

    He puts significant focus on trigger control. I also tend to believe trigger control is a leading cause of marksmanship issues. However, my problems often come from sight picture and follow through. I'd heard Awerbuck say that most accuracy issues come from poor follow-through. After hearing both of these guys talk and analyzing my own issues, I think the problems tend to come together. If you smash the trigger, you probably aren't following through. If you don't take the time to get a good sight picture, you're more likely to jerk the trigger in your haste.

    I had also asked him about simulated Force-on-Force scenarios and he indicated that, in general, he believes they probably do more harm than good. It would take a very long and well-developed scenario to provide much value. This opinion is somewhat at odds with my current training priorities.
     
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    Jackson

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    Jackson you would b surprised the number of people who have trouble with those basic skills you outlined. A very close friend of mine invited CraigH and I to attend some ILEA training with sim guns. At the end of the evening he pulled us aside and commented on how the other officers helping with the training were shocked by our gun handling and ability to move and shoot. The young officers in the training class had to be continually reminded to watch their muzzles and would stop flat footed in the middle of a hall or room to shoot it out. One guys even managed to shoot his partner in the back.

    The fact that a rookie cop can't do it doesn't make it advanced. It just means he's at a lower end of the basic scale. :)

    Also, I would really enjoy getting invited to some police training. How do you hook that up?
     

    VERT

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    Just for Jackson I am going to attempt my very first ever YouTube post. This is me shooting a classifier at South Central today. This particular classifier is similar to the type of drill we did last weekend. The shooter draws and engages three targets at 15 yards, reloads, and reengages the targets with one hand. The target and distance is different but the technique is basically the same. Feel free to critique, criticize and poke fun. I don't really know how I did yet because scores are not posted yet.

    [video=youtube;8BsSN6fyCQg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BsSN6fyCQg[/video]

    Oh and for all of those polymer guys that is in fact an all American 1911 throwing full power loads downrange. :@ya:
     

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