OC rant at the cowboy forum

[Delmar]

I just went on a bit of an Open Carry rant at the cowboy action shooting forum. Somebody asked, What are your feelings on the public right to carry? I mouthed off about the fact that they make you unload your weapon at the CAS events, unless you are at the firing line, and was told it had nothing to do with the question. The following was my response.




The question was...
What are your feelings on the public right to carry? I am a strong advocate for the right to carry. I carry when I go into stores, I carry when I go into a restaurant and sit down for a meal. I just happen to think it's a bit odd, that when I go to a gun range, to engage in a shooting competition, the first thing I am required to do, in the name of "safety" is to disarm!

So the question I am asking is...
What does it do to public perception when people find out that shooting organizations such as SASS consider it "unsafe" to walk around a gun range, or sit around the clubhouse, with a loaded gun in your holster?

I do acknowledge the right of any shooting organization or specific range to make there own rules and set there own agenda. I will also assert my right to challenge them to consider being stronger advocates for our God given rights, to self defense, as spelled out in the 2nd amendment!

 

[Atkinsons]

Well put my friend but with that being said please remember that there are some people out there that are carrying and of course its their "god given right to do so" that either should really think about a gun safety course or not be carrying at all..and we all have encountered those people. I also believe that you should have the right to sit around before or after and shoot the ### with your friends as long as your gun is holstered. So I guess I understand both sides of the arguement. Be safe!

 

[Delmar]

Well put my friend but with that being said please remember that there are some people out there that are carrying and of course its their "god given right to do so" that either should really think about a gun safety course or not be carrying at all..and we all have encountered those people. I also believe that you should have the right to sit around before or after and shoot the ### with your friends as long as your gun is holstered. So I guess I understand both sides of the arguement. Be safe!

I do understand that there is a reason that Andy only let Barney carry one bullet! We teach these people, then we welcome them to the fold.

 

[m_deaner]

The reason that no loaded guns are allowed to be carried at these events is safety, plain and simple. Shooters of differing backgrounds and experience with firearms attend these events. Some of these "newbies" may not even carry for self defense, and might have had very little experience with firearms prior to the event. Sometimes kids shoot as well (especially at Steel Challenge events).

There are similar rules in virtually all the shooting sports... IDPA, Steel Challenge, NRA bullseye, USPSA.

 

[MikeBear]

I use to question the practice until I read the articles in the Front Sight magazine "Accidents Happen". With all the movement of the competitors, and the difference in skill levels, I feel it is a good rule.

 

[trnsplntfrmohio]

its a private property rights if they dont like ur haircut u have to leave as much od a second amendment supperter as i am private property trumps that right if u dont like ir shoot somewherre elese

 

[Delmar]

its a private property rights if they dont like ur haircut u have to leave as much od a second amendment supperter as i am private property trumps that right if u dont like ir shoot somewherre elese

Very true, and I said so.

I do acknowledge the right of any shooting organization or specific range to make there own rules and set there own agenda.

I still reserve the right to state my opinion.

 

[rhino]

Cold ranges are not safer than hot ranges. This is one of the biggest problems I have with most of the shooting sports.

In fact, I think cold ranges are less safe because they condition people to believe that you can handle "unloaded" guns in some manner different from loaded guns. It breeds the illusion that people are somehow safer because there is a rule that no one's gun is supposed to be loaded.

We need to handle guns the same way, all the time. As long as it stays in the holster, it's okay with me. People who aren't safe to have an loaded gun aren't safe to have it when it's "unloaded" either.

Cold rangers also fuel the lie that it's somehow unsafe to have a loaded gun in your holster.

Cold ranges are a recipe for disaster when not all persons 1) know the rules, and 2) adhere to them. People who always adhere to cold range rules eventually succumb to the assumption that everyone else does too. That's probably not a big deal at an organized event like a USPSA match, but at a regular shooting range that runs a cold range, it's going to lead to people handling guns that they assume are unloaded (which aren't), being careless with them because they're "unloaded," and then tragedy can ensue.

 

[Bisley Man]

I get your point, Delmar. It is "goofy" (polite term) to NOT be allowed to even WEAR a handgun in a holster at some ranges (loaded or not)when you can walk around in public with a holstered handgun. With LTCH of course.

 

[Prometheus]

The idea these clubs/events have is that people are going to start pulling their loaded Roscoe's and showing them off, thus increasing the risks for a ND. Which is a possibility.

I find it comical that these clubs/events can't have a rule "No unholstering of your carry gun for any reason other than to shoot a badguy" instead of "no loaded guns. period.".

Basically, somewhere, at some time, some Fudd, lets call him... oh... Jim Zumbo... Well somewhere, some mental midget by the name of Jim Zumbo almost shot his buddy by screwing around with his Roscoe and now no one can carry a loaded Roscoe cuz Jim Zumbo didn't follow the safety rules when handling a loaded gun.

Personally, if they can expect the "no loaded guns" rule to be followed, they can distinguish between a carry gun and other weapons.

Just like Cabelas and Gander Mountain do.

 

[Bisley Man]

Cold ranges are not safer than hot ranges. This is one of the biggest problems I have with most of the shooting sports.

In fact, I think cold ranges are less safe because they condition people to believe that you can handle "unloaded" guns in some manner different from loaded guns. It breeds the illusion that people are somehow safer because there is a rule that no one's gun is supposed to be loaded.

We need to handle guns the same way, all the time. As long as it stays in the holster, it's okay with me. People who aren't safe to have an loaded gun aren't safe to have it when it's "unloaded" either.

Cold rangers also fuel the lie that it's somehow unsafe to have a loaded gun in your holster.

Cold ranges are a recipe for disaster when not all persons 1) know the rules, and 2) adhere to them. People who always adhere to cold range rules eventually succumb to the assumption that everyone else does too. That's probably not a big deal at an organized event like a USPSA match, but at a regular shooting range that runs a cold range, it's going to lead to people handling guns that they assume are unloaded (which aren't), being careless with them because they're "unloaded," and then tragedy can ensue.

Yes ,sir! Especially the middle sentence!

 

[rvb]

when you're out on the town carrying a pistol, the liability is all on you.

when you are at a sanctioned match, the liability is on you, the range, the MDs, the ROs, and the sanctioning body.

it's all about layers of safety, just like the basic rules of gun handling. The point is to overlap the ideas of no handling of guns away from safe areas or under supervision, verified unloaded guns, no ammo in safe areas, etc.

by doing what you can to ensure guns are unloaded, AND that they are not handled when you are not actively competing, they do what they can to make a safe environment.

• ever seen a gun fall out of a holster while the shooter was just watching/taping/doing a walkthrough?
• ever seen someone draw a gun during a walk through?
• ever seen someone gear up where they shouldn't?
• ever seen someone too anxious to show off their new toy and w/o thinking they pull it out for show and tell?
• ever seen guns with obviously un-safe trigger work?

Those are all valid reasons, imo, to NOT have competitors milling around w/ hot guns. I have personally seen all of those things happen, with the exception of the second one, and the person who did that is a friend of mine and told me about it. Matches are not the same as EVERYONE present using carry gear w/ a carry gun where the goal is to never touch the pistol.

The absolute WORST situation happens all the time in IDPA, where they do the cold-range, hot-bay setup (everyone on the squad goes hot at the same time, but you can't leave the bay)... that easily creates the situation where people forget the condition they are in, especially since it's not all that common. I think I've been to a half-dozen matches run that way. It never speeds up the shooting, and there is ALWAYS someone DQ'd or for leaving the bay w/ a hot gun.

-rvb

 

[2cool9031]

Well said , Delmar

 

[longbarrel]

Insurance and lawyers. That is why.

 

[JDonhardt]

Insurance and lawyers. That is why.

This is why.

 

[rhino]

I don't doubt your that your rationale is similar or identical to what motivates cold ranges. It's just not a compelling argument. The reality is simple.

If lawyers were not involved, we'd still have hot ranges. Cold ranges are about bed-wetting fears of liability, not about safety.

when you're out on the town carrying a pistol, the liability is all on you.

when you are at a sanctioned match, the liability is on you, the range, the MDs, the ROs, and the sanctioning body.

it's all about layers of safety, just like the basic rules of gun handling. The point is to overlap the ideas of no handling of guns away from safe areas or under supervision, verified unloaded guns, no ammo in safe areas, etc.

by doing what you can to ensure guns are unloaded, AND that they are not handled when you are not actively competing, they do what they can to make a safe environment.

• ever seen a gun fall out of a holster while the shooter was just watching/taping/doing a walkthrough?
• ever seen someone draw a gun during a walk through?
• ever seen someone gear up where they shouldn't?
• ever seen someone too anxious to show off their new toy and w/o thinking they pull it out for show and tell?
• ever seen guns with obviously un-safe trigger work?

Those are all valid reasons, imo, to NOT have competitors milling around w/ hot guns. I have personally seen all of those things happen, with the exception of the second one, and the person who did that is a friend of mine and told me about it. Matches are not the same as EVERYONE present using carry gear w/ a carry gun where the goal is to never touch the pistol.

The absolute WORST situation happens all the time in IDPA, where they do the cold-range, hot-bay setup (everyone on the squad goes hot at the same time, but you can't leave the bay)... that easily creates the situation where people forget the condition they are in, especially since it's not all that common. I think I've been to a half-dozen matches run that way. It never speeds up the shooting, and there is ALWAYS someone DQ'd or for leaving the bay w/ a hot gun.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

I don't doubt your that your rationale is similar or identical to what motivates cold ranges. It's just not a compelling argument. The reality is simple.

If lawyers were not involved, we'd still have hot ranges. Cold ranges are about bed-wetting fears of liability, not about safety.

just one of those [very, very few] areas we'll have to disagree. I used to think the same thing, and opined for a hot range. While I do agree it's partly about lawyers, I've seen enough over the years to convince me it's also about safety, especially in uspsa/ipsc where you have guys w/ 20 oz triggers, pinned grip safeties, and race holsters.

But I've seen it in idpa, too, where retention screws get loosened till the holster is a gun bucket... all good till someone tries to jump a puddle and the gun goes splash.

Now you can make the argument that if the ranges were hot, people wouldn't run such "dangerous" gear, but competitors are who they are, and limits will always get pushed.

So, in MY [and maybe only my] opinion, safety is a reasonable reason for cold ranges. Just as we say to not keep our finger on the trigger AND not point at something we want to keep around... we tell people not to touch their guns AND to keep them cold. ... layers ...

I'm only talking about matches, which was the point of the OP. And I don't have ANY experience at cowboy or SASS. I can only talk about uspsa/idpa/SCSA/3-guns.

But I do understand ya'lls points. They're valid points. I've personally come to appreciate a cold range on match day.



-rvb

 

[trnsplntfrmohio]

The range I go to, when it goes cold all actions are to be open and magazines to be unloaded. You do not touch any ammunition or firearm during cold range, until EOD when the range closes, but even then I put my carry pistol in my bag and reload with my carry mag and ammo once in my car. If I do put my pistol in my holster while at a hot/cold range i leave the action open.

 

[rhino]

I'm only talking about matches, which was the point of the OP. And I don't have ANY experience at cowboy or SASS. I can only talk about uspsa/idpa/SCSA/3-guns.

But I do understand ya'lls points. They're valid points. I've personally come to appreciate a cold range on match day.

I'm more sympathetic toward your position for actual competitors in the matches.

I think the original message combined the match setting with people carrying openly, so my brain extended that include spectators at matches. That's one of the things that bothered me even before I formed my opinions about hot vs. cold ranges years ago. I noted back then that the USPSA/IPSC rule book did not address spectators, just participants. I found it presumptuous when people on the pre-forums IPSC email list would assert that non-competitors were bound by the competition rules, especially since the penalty for breaking the rules is a disqualification. It was especially troubling to me read the reasoning (or lack thereof) behind it. It also became obvious to me that the people who wrote the rules either disregarded or were ignorant of the fact that regular people carry guns all the time. Provisions for dealing with carry guns for competitors at USPSA matches (except on a club level in some places) are recent.

 

[oldfb]

I always assumed it was that West coast influence since there seems to be a lot of those National Matches are running.