WWII Thompson, C&R and Prices

[jedi]

[DISCLAIMER]
I'm a full-auto n00b and have just always taught that you needed $50K+ in order to get one and even then that the selection would be very limited.
[END DISCLAIMER]

Well as the year comes to an end and I begin to look at my budget for 2009 and even 2010 I'm planning on saving up to get either a Thompson or MP5 (both full-auto).

Doing a quick google search has left me with a ton of questions which I'm hoping some of you can help me with.

1) What is C&R? I've seen it on some of the listing for the Thompson but not others? Is C&R and C&R Eligible the same thing? Is it something that adds value to the weapon?

2) I was under the impression like I said in my disclaimer that MG are extremely $$$$. So why is this one listed for only $8k? (Yes $8K is a lot for a gun but when compared to some of the $40K prices I have seen...)

NFA Firearms

Auto Ordnance M1a1 Thompson, wartime gun. Military proofs are intact, and all original finish. Upper & Lower do not match. Pre-86 dealer sample gun. Pirce $8495.00

Link of PICs.
Images

Why the others on the list are "call for price" which in my mind means if you don't list the price then it's real expensive and you probably can't afford.

3) How much should I set my savings goal before I can seriously begin to look for my new baby? I have about $3K saved up right now and figured within the next 2 years I can save another $20K to $25K. I could probably push for $30K but that is really pushing it.

How much do MP5 and Thompson run?

Thanks​

 

[VUPDblue]

The gun you linked to is a dealer sample and not transferable, you cant buy it. Expect to pay at minimum $15k for a Thompson.

 

[curraheeguns]

However, if you are interested in a Form 4 MG42 let me know. I know where one is in Indy but it is $40k+.

 

[turnandshoot4]

The Mac 10's and Ruger AC 556's are pretty cheap if you want to break into that market.

 

[VUPDblue]

Here's some transferable Thompsons:

- nfafirearms.com: Machin Guns

This one you will need a C&R license for:
One of a Kind

WTS: 1928A1 THOMPSON WH $14,000.00 (pics)

WTS: AO 1928 Thompson $17,000

 

[Splagt]

Thompson purchase information

I'll try to give you some basic Thompson information, mixed with personal opinions. C&R means Curio and Relic eligible. That means you can purchase the weapon directly from a dealer, regardless of where he is located, as long as you have a C&R FFL and you pay the required $200 transfer fee. You can't buy a dealer sample, unless you have the SOT license. As far as transferable Thompsons are concerned, there are three basic categories:
Colt guns, Military 1928s and M1As and the West Hurley guns. Assuming good condition, the Colt guns bring $35,000 and up, the Savage and Bridgeport guns bring $18.000 and up, and the reproductions made in West Hurley, NY start around $12,500 and up. They all shoot (or can be made to shoot) The difference is collectibility and demand. Note that only the M1A West Hurley is C&R eligile, not the 1928 version. My advice is get one as soon as possible, if you really think you want one. There are really quite a few on the market now, and the pricing has stabilized somewhat. I remember thinking a $3000 asking price for a military 1928 was outrageous. If I only knew then what I know now...

 

[KokomoDave]

I know a local doctor selling a fully transferable MP5 with a 3 lug silencer for $30,000 that has a 50+ German mags,fixed and folding stock,spare fore-ends,claw mount Docter red dot sight,H&K sling,cleaning kit,oiler & Hirtenberger submachinegun ammo.Seems a little high but this is all original H&K and never fired.The silencer is a B & T serial numbered to the H&K.

 

[Splagt]

MP5

What I am about to say is probably grounds for expulsion from this website. However... I'm not that impressed with the MP5 weapon system, especially for someone new to the exciting field of full auto weapons. Here's why:
1. Parts are expensive, if you can find them, (other than the Pakistani version). Barrel availablity is a particular problem.
2. Competent full auto gunsmiths who will work on the MP5 are expensive and usually located in another state.
3. You can't really work on the weapon yourself, other than some bolt replacement parts.
4. They are a pain to clean after a full auto session.
There is a lot of good things to be said about an UZI, a S&W 76 or a 9mm version of the AR. The asking prices are about half of the MP5. Parts are available, you can do a lot of the work yourself, and they are robust.

But, you pays your money and you takes your choice...

 

[Scutter01]

But, you pays your money and you takes your choice...

As much fun as I think a full auto is, I gotta be thinking that for the cost of a Thompson (or that MP5), it's an investment and not a shooter, any more than you'd open the Action Comics #1 sealed mylar to read the comic inside.

 

[jedi]

I'll try to give you some basic Thompson information, mixed with personal opinions. C&R means Curio and Relic eligible. That means you can purchase the weapon directly from a dealer, regardless of where he is located, as long as you have a C&R FFL and you pay the required $200 transfer fee. You can't buy a dealer sample, unless you have the SOT license.

C&R FFL license?? SOT license??? hu??
Are these some type of merchant licenses?
I just have an IL life-time permit would I need to get another type of license/permit to get a MG? I was under the impression that it was a one time $200 "tax stamp" that you needed to pay for along with waiting f-o-r-e-v-e-r for the forms to get approved. Plus my local county sheriff would have to sign off on it as well (the form that is).

As far as transferable Thompsons are concerned, there are three basic categories:
Colt guns, Military 1928s and M1As and the West Hurley guns. Assuming good condition, the Colt guns bring $35,000 and up, the Savage and Bridgeport guns bring $18.000 and up, and the reproductions made in West Hurley, NY start around $12,500 and up. They all shoot (or can be made to shoot) The difference is collectibility and demand. Note that only the M1A West Hurley is C&R eligile, not the 1928 version. My advice is get one as soon as possible, if you really think you want one. There are really quite a few on the market now, and the pricing has stabilized somewhat. I remember thinking a $3000 asking price for a military 1928 was outrageous. If I only knew then what I know now...

All I see the difference in the guns. Sadly the money to buy such a weapon won't be available for at least 18 more months.

@Whoemever offers the MG42. ohh ahhh I would like but my first MG (and probably my only one) will be either a thompson or a tommy gun. Being so close to Chicago the love affair for the tommy gun is just too great.

I was looking into the semi-auto tommy guns but have heard mixed reviews on them jamming and not being as much fun as the 'real' thing.

@MP5 comments.
Thanks will have to keep that in mind.

@The "shoot" or "investment" yes I do see it as an investment for my kids one day but right now I'm more focuses on just getting one.

Thanks all

 

[CarmelHP]

I just have an IL life-time permit would I need to get another type of license/permit to get a MG? I

IL? As in Illinois? In Illinois, you're SOL.

 

[Splagt]

Licenses

No, you don't need a special license to own a full auto, just the approval of BATFE and the $200.00 one time transfer fee. The C&R license is a separate license for collectors, not dealers. It gives you certain privileges in purchasing certain firearms that have been classified as Curio and Relics. I mentioned an SOT, a Special Occupational Tax stamp. Disregard this, it is only for dealers in machine guns, not you, a private purchaser. May I suggest you do some research while you are accumulating some money to purchase your first full auto? It is a fascinating and incredibly fun pastime. It can be incredibly satisfying and incredibly profitable. Like anything else, you get out of it what you put in to it. In addition to the knowledgeable members of this forum, check out these websites: Sturmgewehr Assault Rifle and NFA Forums, and Tom Bowers Subguns and of course, the Thompson Owners forums. There is a wealth of information out there. Go slowly, study and you will make the right decision. Good luck!

 

[jedi]

CarmelHP,

I need a "GUMP" award for that last post. I have an INDIANA permit but in my mutli-tasking on wirting on this forums and another one talking about IL I type IL instead of IN! Opps!!!

Splat, thanks for the other website ref. I just started and figure I have 18 to 24 months before I even start the process of actually buying a MG. The good news is that tons of OT is coming my way in 2009. =)

 

[knobcreeknut]

join the thompson collectors assoc (tca) or the american thompson assoc (tata) each group puts out news letters that are good sources of info they also both have annual shoots that you could attend. tata shoot is in ohio in august every year tca shoot moves and is indiana this year(near richmond) thompson collectors are a breed of there own. go here MachineGunBoards.com Forums -> Thompson SMG Message Board for the best info on thompsons on the net. my thompson was my first nfa purchase and the guys on this sight helped me make a great investment. yes it is an investment. prices are down right now, so this would be a good time to pick one up. if the nfa market goes back up as fast as they did a few years back, price increases could out pace your ability to save.
I will try to help you with any questions you have that are thompson specific.

 

[minuteman32]

C&R License is a collectors license that allows you to buy C&R guns directly, from anyone, w/o going through an FFL dealer. Costs about $30/3 yrs (I believe). The guns must be on the ATF C&R list, as I recall.

SOT is a Special Occupational Tax that an FFL holder will pay &, depending on the type, allow that dealer to be a dealer, or manufacturer, of MG's/suppressors/etc. Costs $500/1000/yr, plus cost of FFL, depending on $ amount of annual sales.

As an individual/trust/corp. you may only buy a ClassIII item through a dealer in your state or from an individual in your state, pay a $200 tax & fill out required paperwork (form 4, usually).

The folks @ ACME will be able to answer your questions, too. They are skilled @ making this confusing bag of snakes understandable.

 

[Bill of Rights]

In addition, having the C&R FFL tends to make some businesses open doors for you that they won't for someone else. Examples are SOG, letting you have access to their dealer pricing, Brownell's and Midway giving discounts, etc. It's a nice investment, and yes, I recommend it.

I'm curious, since IIRC, any gun over 50 years old is on the C&R list unless it's been modified, why the 1928 Military Thompson would not be C&R eligible. Anyone?

Blessings,
B

 

[Splagt]

C&R 1928 Clarification

The military 1928 is on the C&R list, since it is over 50 years old. Only the West Hurley produced 1928 is currently not authorized for C&R transfers. On the other hand , the West Hurley M1A is listed as a C&R. I believe it has to do with the total production. Only about 625 West Hurley M1As were produced before the ban, technically making them the smallest production run of all the Thompson weapons.