??? A gun without a round in the chamber is as useless as an unloaded gun!!!
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Would i have been in the wrong...?
- Thread starter turnerdye1
- Start date
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Nope, not at all.
I just used your post as my jumping off point to correct some other incorrect beliefs by others - like the ones who think you actually have to be attacked in order to be justified in defending yourself. Or the ones who say that that gang of four bigger guys who just threatened to smash your head in who & are positioning themselves to fulfill their threat MUST be armed in order to use deadly force. Or the ones who will tell you that you WILL be arrested and tried for murder no matter what the "totality of the circumstances" may be. Or the one that said you have to actually be in your car in oder to justify deadly force on some attacker. Or..., well, you get the idea.
In the vey narrow question put forth above I think the answer would be that you should be OK barring some prosecutor trying to make an example of you in HIS district.
If we have to worry about being convicted of a crime when defending ourselves from FOUR GUYS (a very OBVIOUS disparity of force) who threatened to KILL YOU (since, if you get head your head "smashed in", it's likely you will be dead) & are ALL standing together while moving to ACTUALLY attack you then I don't really see how we could EVER be justified in using deadly force in defending ourselves if the other person is unarmed.
At some pont you just have to know in your own head what is the correct answer.
And just for the record, I agree with the rest of your post above that I left out, too.
GuyRelford
Master
Understood!! 
singlestacksig
Master
start looking for a new job.. If you do not have the authority to eject someone from the grounds you can not be a very good life guard.
Okay heres the situation.... This actually happened to me today, well most of it. Youll read where it becomes a what if situation..
There was a threat of physical violence.
I am a lifeguard at the local city pool. As some of you know if youve ever been to the pool youll have scum and thugs come and give you **** all day. This guy in particular gives me crap everyday. He's 26.... tatted up and has no job. The scum i was talking about. Today he got especially on my nerves. I gave him a few warnings like i always do but today he went over the edge. Him and his buddies started harrassing me while i was on duty and i said to stop and then they completly start dropping F bombs and calling me a *****. If that wasnt enough the bigger guy says if i tell them what to do again he was gonna smash my f ing head in when i got off work. At this point that crossed the line and i was a little freaked out. So i just ignorned them and they went to a differant part of the pool, cussing as they went. I go get my manager and have them kicked out of the pool. Which is protocol for a situation like this. They start hassling him, he is a 50 year old man... He eventually gets them calmed down and they all leave. At this point i thought the situation was over. Well i rotate to my next stand and i see them all in the parking lot standing by the fence starring at me. I was like "oh great". So i go get my manager and the cops come and make them leave the property. The situation is over. At this point the whole ordeal is over with for today. Tomorow who knows..
But here is where my question " Would i have been in the wrong" comes into play. Say the cops didnt come... And they stayed out there until we closed. Which was about 30min away. But say i would have went out to my car and all four guys follow me out there. I keep my G19 in the compartment between the seats. But they are following me cussing me out and i get to my vehicle open the door to keep that as a barrier between us. I grab my glock rack a round but keep it hidden from them on the seat. I tell them to stop where they are at, at the front of my car, or you will be shot. For some dumb ass reason they start towards me, i pull out my gun and shoot them all and drop them. 15 rounds on 4 guys would be enough i would think especially at less then 7 yards. Would i have been okay to use deadly force in that situation? Would i have been okay to shoot all four guys or just the one in the front? Enlight me on what you would do with this situation...
It would have been best to have had LE trespass them from the property. Once they are given a trespass warning by LE, if they return to the property they can be arrested. That would take care of most of your problems.
Others have given you some good sound advice. The main one is that the gun is the absolute last resort.
turnerdye1
Master
I happen to be a very good lifeguard actually...im one of the stricter ones there. I tried kicking the guy out of the pool and thats when he got ****ty with me. So id appreciate it if you didnt tell me how to do my job if you dont know the situation.
LE came the second time to get rid of the guys and i havent seen them sense. The LE said if i see them again just call and theyll come with the paper work for a trespass warrant. So hopefully they just stay away...
singlestacksig
Master
If you have to go get someone to get permission to eject the person, then your jobs limits keep you from being a good lifeguard.. not that you are doing a bad job.. but if you don't have the immediate authority then problem people will know that and give you grief..
the problem is not you, its the limits they set..
turnerdye1
Master
oh okay i get what your saying. i have the authority to kick someone out for however long i feel is necessary. i tried to kick this guy out...but he blew up and wouldnt listen to me. which is why i had to involve other people (manager and another guard)
1. disparity of force
2. why don't you have a round chambered to begin with?
3. if you take out one, the others aren't likely to hang around
4. the cops think it's all good? call them for a civil standby for when you get off work.
ETA: I posted after reading just the OP
2. why don't you have a round chambered to begin with?
3. if you take out one, the others aren't likely to hang around
4. the cops think it's all good? call them for a civil standby for when you get off work.
ETA: I posted after reading just the OP
Another side-discussion to being in the heat of a situation like this...
Would you be in the wrong to pull your fire arm in visible sight to your threat (four guys)
as a near-last resort to hope they step back vs laying them all out before they attack you?
Or could that come back at you as threat to them (unlikely, but possible given the scenario).
Would you be in the wrong to pull your fire arm in visible sight to your threat (four guys)
as a near-last resort to hope they step back vs laying them all out before they attack you?
Or could that come back at you as threat to them (unlikely, but possible given the scenario).
Sounds like they were banned from the property. You likely won't have anymore issues with them. If a few weeks go by and they try to come back, call up the cops and ask them if the trespass warning is still active and if so, they need to come out and deal with the lawbreakers.
IndianaSigma
Sharpshooter
What I would do in this situation:
I would not go to my car until the police arrived. You would likely have been beaten, stabbed, etc. before ever getting to your vehicle. I'd wait inside with the doors locked until the police arrived.
If I had decided to go to my car and they were in front of it, I would just slam the door shut, lock it, and throw it in reverse if possible to flee (ruining grass, fences, etc. wouldn't be a concern at this point). Gun would be +1 and in hand. If there was a tree behind me and the only way out was forward, I would put it in drive and move forward (trying not to run any of the thugs over but getting away from the situation would be my main concern). Then make a police report about the situation in case they decide not to let this go at that.
It's best to not put yourself in the whole car situation as I stated in the beginning of this post, though.
I would not go to my car until the police arrived. You would likely have been beaten, stabbed, etc. before ever getting to your vehicle. I'd wait inside with the doors locked until the police arrived.
If I had decided to go to my car and they were in front of it, I would just slam the door shut, lock it, and throw it in reverse if possible to flee (ruining grass, fences, etc. wouldn't be a concern at this point). Gun would be +1 and in hand. If there was a tree behind me and the only way out was forward, I would put it in drive and move forward (trying not to run any of the thugs over but getting away from the situation would be my main concern). Then make a police report about the situation in case they decide not to let this go at that.
It's best to not put yourself in the whole car situation as I stated in the beginning of this post, though.
