Would i have been in the wrong...?

[turnerdye1]

Okay heres the situation.... This actually happened to me today, well most of it. Youll read where it becomes a what if situation..

There was a threat of physical violence.

I am a lifeguard at the local city pool. As some of you know if youve ever been to the pool youll have scum and thugs come and give you **** all day. This guy in particular gives me crap everyday. He's 26.... tatted up and has no job. The scum i was talking about. Today he got especially on my nerves. I gave him a few warnings like i always do but today he went over the edge. Him and his buddies started harrassing me while i was on duty and i said to stop and then they completly start dropping F bombs and calling me a *****. If that wasnt enough the bigger guy says if i tell them what to do again he was gonna smash my f ing head in when i got off work. At this point that crossed the line and i was a little freaked out. So i just ignorned them and they went to a differant part of the pool, cussing as they went. I go get my manager and have them kicked out of the pool. Which is protocol for a situation like this. They start hassling him, he is a 50 year old man... He eventually gets them calmed down and they all leave. At this point i thought the situation was over. Well i rotate to my next stand and i see them all in the parking lot standing by the fence starring at me. I was like "oh great". So i go get my manager and the cops come and make them leave the property. The situation is over. At this point the whole ordeal is over with for today. Tomorow who knows..

But here is where my question " Would i have been in the wrong" comes into play. Say the cops didnt come... And they stayed out there until we closed. Which was about 30min away. But say i would have went out to my car and all four guys follow me out there. I keep my G19 in the compartment between the seats. But they are following me cussing me out and i get to my vehicle open the door to keep that as a barrier between us. I grab my glock rack a round but keep it hidden from them on the seat. I tell them to stop where they are at, at the front of my car, or you will be shot. For some dumb ass reason they start towards me, i pull out my gun and shoot them all and drop them. 15 rounds on 4 guys would be enough i would think especially at less then 7 yards. Would i have been okay to use deadly force in that situation? Would i have been okay to shoot all four guys or just the one in the front? Enlight me on what you would do with this situation... If you feel i left out any key statements let me know and i will explain the best i can

 

[Sureshot129]

I wouldn't count on them letting you get to your car.

 

[turnerdye1]

I wouldn't count on them letting you get to your car.

Thats what i was thinking...but im not allowed to take my firearm in the building. I asked already...

 

[OWGEM]

Best to de-escalate. If you can get in your car you can drive away? Useing your firearm should be the very last resort.

 

[Glockapoppadopolis]

I wouldn't count on them letting you get to your car.

This definitely, but had you gotten that far I think you would have been alright. Let them see it, warn them, past that there isn't much you can do but defend.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

You're probably going to prison for shooting a bunch of unarmed guys when you could have driven away.

 

[Sureshot129]

Thats what i was thinking...but im not allowed to take my firearm in the building. I asked already...

Get LEO's involved things will cool off but watch you six for a few days and don't count on them hanging around the fence.

Best to de-escalate. If you can get in your car you can drive away? Useing your firearm should be the very last resort.

This

 

[esrice]

There are too many "what ifs" in this particular question to answer it fully and cleanly, but I will touch on a few things.

I grab my glock rack a round

Mistake #1. You won't always have time to "rack a round". Glocks are meant to be carried in Condition 1 (round in chamber).

i pull out my gun and shoot them all and drop them.

Better idea would be to lock the doors, start the car, and start driving.

15 rounds on 4 guys would be enough i would think especially at less then 7 yards.

Maybe if they were standing still on a square range and they were made of cardboard. I don't think 15 rounds would be adequate on 4 actual attackers.

Would i have been okay to use deadly force in that situation?

That depends. Do you feel that your life is in imminent danger of death or grave bodily injury? Or do you simply think they want to smash your windows, key your car, and scare you?

Would i have been okay to shoot all four guys or just the one in the front?

Depends on which one is actively trying to kill or maim you.

 

[esrice]

I will also note that answers to these types of questions can often be found by taking some professional training in handgun fighting and force-on-force.

We in Indiana are lucky to have so many options for that type of training right at our fingertips.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/tactics_and_training/

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

IMHO...simply cussing at you and otherwise verbally harassing you would not be enough for me, sitting in your jury, to acquit you. I think what is missing from your scenario are threats of physical injury, display of weapons, proximity of them to you, etc.

 

[Bill B]

Ok, my take. I would go to the PD and sign an intimidation complaint, and ask the judge for a no-contact order.
The hypothetical: IF you make it to the car, drive to the PD.

 

[jsharmon7]

I like esrice's answer best so far. We have to learn that the gun isn't the only answer. If you see them waiting at the car, call the police. If they follow you, call the police. If you are really concerned that they are going to continue to go after you then file for a protective order. It really doesn't matter if you're legally justified to shoot or not; IF you have other options, use them first. You don't want it on your conscience to shoot somebody and you don't want to spend the time and money defending yourself in court. The gun is the absolute last option, as in they are advancing on you NOW with intent to seriously injure you and you cannot possibly escape. Honestly, I don't care if 25 men armed with bats are coming after me, if I can run away I'm going to do it rather than shooting at them.

 

[BDBHoover]

This definitely, but had you gotten that far I think you would have been alright. Let them see it, warn them, past that there isn't much you can do but defend.

I'm not 100% sure on this particular situation but brandishing a firearm that is loaded is considered a felony...... like I said I'm not sure about the situation but the best thing that he could do in that scenario is to close the doors drive away while on the phone with the local PD informing them of the situation and speaking to management about getting a trespass order put in place for the 4 guys in question......

 

[IndyBeerman]

I keep my G19 in the compartment between the seats. But they are following me cussing me out and i get to my vehicle open the door to keep that as a barrier between us. I grab my glock rack a round but keep it hidden from them on the seat. best i can

Just a question for fodder......

Why do you not carry with one in the chamber?

Until it's loaded, it's merely a paper weight or a club if they pull you away from your vehicle before you have a chance to rack the slide. Keep it ready to be fired, it will lessen your chance for a lot of potential things from happening (hand slipping while pulling slide back, round not chambering right, ect..ect..).

Now for the rest of it....IANAL and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but coming at you cussing, does justify using deadly force. You'd better be able to use the words "I feared for my life" and be able to back it up.

 

[IndyBeerman]

I'm not 100% sure on this particular situation but brandishing a firearm that is loaded is considered a felony...... like I said I'm not sure about the situation but the best thing that he could do in that scenario is to close the doors drive away while on the phone with the local PD informing them of the situation and speaking to management about getting a trespass order put in place for the 4 guys in question......

There is no brandishing law in Indiana.

 

[lovemachine]

If you're now off work, and you saw that group of guys waiting for you, WHY would you even leave the safety of the building?

Call the police and just wait inside. Don't even attempt to leave the safety of the building. Don't get into that type of situation.

 

[beararms1776]

Blasting 4 people who have not laid a hand on you and have only threatened violence toward you? Careful, there are people that worry about you having a gun for defense against a physical attack like that.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I wouldn't count on them letting you get to your car.

Agreed, IF they are really there just to beat him up or whatever. Doubtful. They are there to intimidate and if you keep your cool it is unlikely they will escalate- just like playground bullies.

Best to de-escalate. If you can get in your car you can drive away? Useing your firearm should be the very last resort.

Agreed. In the game of life there is no second chances when it come to life and death. They outnumbered you and you did not know if any of them were armed. If you truly feared for your safety those are not good odds. Best not to push them unless absolutely necessary.

You're probably going to prison for shooting a bunch of unarmed guys when you could have driven away.

Castle Doctrine= No duty to retreat. I thought you knew that by now? Also, how do you KNOW they are unarmed? Haven't you seen people trampled to death? They were trampled by unarmed people...

There are too many "what ifs" in this particular question to answer it fully and cleanly, but I will touch on a few things.



Mistake #1. You won't always have time to "rack a round". Glocks are meant to be carried in Condition 1 (round in chamber).



Better idea would be to lock the doors, start the car, and start driving.




Maybe if they were standing still on a square range and they were made of cardboard. I don't think 15 rounds would be adequate on 4 actual attackers.



That depends. Do you feel that your life is in imminent danger of death or grave bodily injury? Or do you simply think they want to smash your windows, key your car, and scare you?



Depends on which one is actively trying to kill or maim you.

I will also note that answers to these types of questions can often be found by taking some professional training in handgun fighting and force-on-force.

We in Indiana are lucky to have so many options for that type of training right at our fingertips.

Tactics and Training - INGunOwners

Take this advice. Esrice knows what he is talking about on all accounts.

I'm not 100% sure on this particular situation but brandishing a firearm that is loaded is considered a felony...... like I said I'm not sure about the situation but the best thing that he could do in that scenario is to close the doors drive away while on the phone with the local PD informing them of the situation and speaking to management about getting a trespass order put in place for the 4 guys in question......

Like has been said, we do not have a brandishing law, what you are thinking of is it is a misdemeanor to point an unloaded firearm and a felony to point a loaded firearm at an innocent person. Does NOT apply to self defense.

If you're now off work, and you saw that group of guys waiting for you, WHY would you even leave the safety of the building?

Call the police and just wait inside. Don't even attempt to leave the safety of the building. Don't get into that type of situation.

Some people don't like to be pushed around by guys who talk big but don't back it up. Some people take the safe route and avoid confrontation. I don't believe either avenue to be wrong as if you are a law abiding person you have every right to be where you are and there is no reason bullies should be able to change that. I think you can tell which I would choose.

 

[jsheets1]

Actually this would fall under the premise of a mob action. You would be completely within your rights to shoot any of them including one not active in the assault. If after warning them they still continue towards you blast the crap out of all of them until the threat is eliminated. In a mob action there does not have to be a weapon present. If you need a link to the specific case I will find it for you when I get to my pc.

 

[Ram-jac]

Driving to PD and filing a complaint and getting paper on them is definitely not a bad idea. Then....when they "violate" that order and you do what is required....you'll be on better ground.