Would .223 FMJ be fine for shooting groundhogs?

[agentl074]

That was the original question I think. Using a Hollow Point or Soft Point bullet would be more humane than a FMJ. I don’t think there could be any argument there. Can the .223 FMJ do the job? Of course, but it isn’t the best choice. For a bullet to be efficient, it has to give up its’ energy into the object being shot, causing massive shock. Since the FMJ doesn’t mushroom like a soft point or fragment like a hollow point very little energy is transferred, and unless a vital organ is punctured causing it to bleed out or large bone is hit casing the fragmenting with bone matter, the bullet may not kill the animal.
If I understand correctly, the Geneva Convention was to make war more “civilized” and disallows anything but a FMJ because it causes a cleaner wound that when not lethal, can be recovered from easier. (Fewer bits of clothing or foreign matter get dragged into the body as happens with hollow point or soft bullets.) The military uses them because they feed more reliably, not because they kill better. I know Vietnam Vets that loathed giving up their M-14s for the M-16. Their comments were that the .223 was ineffective against drugged up/hyped up combatants while their .308 M-14 put them down nicely. I have read some GIs liked to cut the tops off their .223 bullets making them into soft points, to increase their killing power. (I think they were called dum-dums and were a no-no.)
As far as the odd bullet path of the .223/5.56, it was my understanding from the experts while I was in the military that it was caused by the rate of twist in the Colt M-16 not stabilizing the bullet well. If this is the case, it would act differently in different rates of twist.

Yep, it was the twist rate for stabilization of the 55 gr M193. Now all spitzer type bullets will yaw and tumble given enough depth... some spitzers will do this better than others. Twist rates also influence the amount of yaw and tumble. Range also plays into the equation... closer the range, better the yaw and tumble.

 

[Marc]

Who's that now???

Hoosier kill and chill

 

[2cool9031]

One more note.....I have shot a lot of groundhogs in Michigan....If you take a shot and miss....The groundhog will be back....but next time approach from a different angle or direction. It will be wise to the orginal direction you were in when you took your initial shot and will spook if you approach from the same direction. I read this in a hunting magazine years ago and it worked.

 

[rhino]

Yep, it was the twist rate for stabilization of the 55 gr M193. Now all spitzer type bullets will yaw and tumble given enough depth... some spitzers will do this better than others. Twist rates also influence the amount of yaw and tumble. Range also plays into the equation... closer the range, better the yaw and tumble.

Stabilization in flight has little or nothing to do with the wounding characteristics of M193 5.56x45mm ball ammuntion. The yawing happens after impact. M193 fragments reliably as long as its moving at 2700 fps or faster when it hits, regardless of whether it's a 1 in 12, 1 in 9, 1 in 8, or 1 in 7 inches rate of twist. All of those will properly stabilize the projectile for its flight, so stable flight does not preclude fragmentation.

It involves:
1. Speed
2. Bullet geometry (bulk of the mass is in the back)
3. Thin copper jacket
4. The material it hits (something gooey like a person or water) and whether or not there is enough for it to happen before it exits

When the projectile hits, it starts to lose both tranlational and angular velocity very rapidly. Since the mass is concentrated toward the rear of the bullet, the back end has a litte more momentum than the front and starts to overtake the front end as the bullet rotate (this is called "yaw"). When the projectile is moving sideways through the medium, it's now tearing a much bigger hole. If it's going fast enough, the bullet can't stand the stress and it snaps into two or more pieces, depending its velocity at impact as well as some random events as well. Once it fragments, it's now tearing a hole bigger than a 12 ga. slug through the medium.

The M193 projectile needs to impact at about 2700 fps or higher to fragment reliably. It'll probably due it most of the time down to 2500 fps. I'm not sure how fast it needs to be going just to experience the yaw, but it's probably lower still. Bullets that are more prone to fragmenting will do so lower impact velocities, such as 68, 75, and 77gr OTM bullets.

And the ammunition rules were part of the Hague Convention, not the Geneva Convention.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

All this science is making me sick to my stomach.

Rhino, when I saw you posted in this thread, I figured you were telling the story about the zombie groundhog ( the one you saved the world from). Wasn't that wretched creature dispatched with an AR?

 

[agentl074]

Stabilization in flight has little or nothing to do with the wounding characteristics of M193 5.56x45mm ball ammunition. The yawing happens after impact. M193 fragments reliably as long as its moving at 2700 fps or faster when it hits, regardless of whether it's a 1 in 12, 1 in 9, 1 in 8, or 1 in 7 inches rate of twist. All of those will properly stabilize the projectile for its flight, so stable flight does not preclude fragmentation.

It involves:
1. Speed
2. Bullet geometry (bulk of the mass is in the back)
3. Thin copper jacket
4. The material it hits (something gooey like a person or water) and whether or not there is enough for it to happen before it exits

When the projectile hits, it starts to lose both transitional and angular velocity very rapidly. Since the mass is concentrated toward the rear of the bullet, the back end has a little more momentum than the front and starts to overtake the front end as the bullet rotate (this is called "yaw"). When the projectile is moving sideways through the medium, it's now tearing a much bigger hole. If it's going fast enough, the bullet can't stand the stress and it snaps into two or more pieces, depending its velocity at impact as well as some random events as well. Once it fragments, it's now tearing a hole bigger than a 12 ga. slug through the medium.

The M193 projectile needs to impact at about 2700 fps or higher to fragment reliably. It'll probably due it most of the time down to 2500 fps. I'm not sure how fast it needs to be going just to experience the yaw, but it's probably lower still. Bullets that are more prone to fragmenting will do so lower impact velocities, such as 68, 75, and 77gr OTM bullets.

And the ammunition rules were part of the Hague Convention, not the Geneva Convention.

- Curtesy of firearms tactical.com FirearmsTactical.com - Home

Wounding Effects of the U.S. Military M193 (M16A1) and M855 (M16A2) Bullet Cartridges

Exaggerated descriptions of the wounding effects of the M16 rifle bullet flourish as great works of urban lore. One fable describes a bullet that tumbles end-over-end in flight as soon as it exits the muzzle of the rifle. Another legend provides a dramatic account of an unstable, super-high velocity bullet that tumbles and chews its way through flesh like a buzz saw. Although there appears to be a tinge of half-truth behind these entertaining and awe-inspiring mythical tales, these stories do not represent an accurate description of the wounding characteristics of the M16 bullet.
When the M16 cartridge is fired and the bullet is propelled down the bore, the bore’s rifling imparts a gyroscopic spin to the bullet. This gyroscopic rotation is needed to maintain point forward stabilization of the bullet as it flies through the air. This method of bullet stabilization is identical to the rotational spin applied to a football when thrown by a quarterback (American football).
The Earth’s gaseous atmosphere is approximately 400 times less dense than the body's soft tissues. When the M16 bullet strikes and plows into the body, the rotational spin that stabilized its flight through the air is insufficient to maintain its stability as it flies through dense tissue. The bullet typically penetrates point forward for approximately 4-5 inches before it begins to seek a state of stability in the body.
The bullet’s pointed shape makes it heavier at its base than its nose, producing a center of gravity that is located aft of its longitudinal centerline. When the bullet hits the body and penetrates, the bullet attempts to rotate 180 degrees around its center of gravity to achieve a base forward orientation. This backwards orientation is the bullet’s stable position in tissue because it places the center of gravity forward.
As the bullet yaws through 90 degrees and is traveling sideways through flesh, the stress of tissue resistance to bullet passage can overpower the physical integrity of the bullet. The bullet has a groove around its midsection called a cannelure. The purpose of the cannelure is to permit the mouth of the cartridge case to be crimped tightly against the bullet shank to hold it firmly to the case. The cannelure weakens the structural integrity of the bullet's copper jacket.
At distances of 100 yards and under, when the bullet hits the body and yaws through 90 degrees, the stresses on the bullet cause the leading edge to flatten, extruding lead core out the open base, just before it breaks apart at the cannelure. The portion of the bullet forward of the cannelure, the nose, usually remains in one piece and retains about 60 percent of the bullet's original weight. The portion of the bullet aft of the cannelure, the base, violently disintegrates into multiple lead core and copper jacket fragments, which penetrate up to 3-inches radially outward from the wound track. The fragments perforate and weaken the surrounding tissues allowing the subsequent temporary cavity to forcibly stretch and rip open the multiple small wound tracks produced by the fragments. The resulting wound is similar to one produced by a commercial expanding bullet used for varmint hunting, however the maximum tissue damage produced by the military bullet is located at a greater penetration depth.
(The increased wounding effects produced by bullet fragmentation were not well understood until the mid-1980’s. Therefore the wounding effects of the original M16 rifle bullet were not an intentional U.S. military design characteristic.)
At distances between 100-200 yards the bullet commonly breaks in half at the cannelure forming two large penetrating fragments, the nose and base.
At distances beyond 200 yards the bullet usually remains intact due to velocity decay. It simply yaws 180 degrees to penetrate backwards through the body.
Both the M193 and M855 bullets demonstrate similar terminal performance as described above, when fired from rifles fitted with a 20-inch or longer barrel.
Shooting the M193 or M855 from a rifle with a barrel length less than 14.5-inches produces insufficient muzzle velocity to achieve the terminal performance described above. A rifle fitted with a 14.5-inch barrel is adequate for close-quarters battle. For engagements anticipated at greater than room distance but less than 100 yards, a rifle fitted with a 16.5-inch barrel should be employed to ensure sufficient velocity.
The older 55-grain M193 (M16A1) cartridge is not sensitive to rifling twist rate and can be fired in rifles with 1:12, 1:9 and 1:7 rates of twist. However, the newer M855 (M16A2) cartridge is best used with a rifling twist rate of 1:7 or 1:9. When the M855 is fired in a rifle with a slower rate of twist the longer 62-grain bullet can yaw up to 70 degrees in free trajectory through the air, substantially degrading accuracy.
The wound ballistics of the U.S. military Olin M193/Winchester 55 grain FMJ (X223R1 or Q3131) and green tip U.S. military Olin M855/Winchester 62 grain FMJ (RA556M855) cartridges makes them an adequate choice for use against violent criminal offenders.
Additional testing has indicated that errant bullets (military FMJ and commercial .223 Remington JSP/JHP) which do not hit an attacker appear to penetrate fewer walls and other common building materials than stray handgun bullets.
​

 

[cosermann]

Just curious if FMJ .223 are fine for humanely killing groundhogs. I've got a bunch, but will get some soft points if the FMJ are no good. Anyone shoot groundhogs with them?

What's the twist rate of the rifle you'll be using? The reason I ask is because the 55 gr fmj (like the M193) often has a 4-5" neck before it starts to yaw in the target. Since the groundhog is a smallish beast, the bullet could well be through before it yaws (thus poking .22 cal holes in the chuck).

The heavier (and longer) fmj bullets generally have a shorter neck before they start to yaw (some as short as 1"), and might be expected to do more damage to a chuck, however, a faster twist rate is generally needed to stabilize them.

 

[JosephR]

Think about it....... If it was good enough to kill thousands of North Vietnamese soldiers..... I'm pretty sure it would work for a rodent!!!!

Yeah but we want to be humane to the rodents- the communists didn't deserve it.

 

[rhino]

All this science is making me sick to my stomach.

Rhino, when I saw you posted in this thread, I figured you were telling the story about the zombie groundhog ( the one you saved the world from). Wasn't that wretched creature dispatched with an AR?

Dude! Now the PETA people are going to be after me!

And if I recall correctly, it was a Killer Mutant Cannibal Zombie SCOUT preceding a vast army of Killer Mutant Cannibal Zombie Groundhogs. When it failed to return from its recon mission, the army naturally assumed they would meet too much resistance. Thus, I saved the world!

The critter was dispatched with one round of M193 ball (Federal XM193) from a measured 50 yards. He died right where he was standing on his stubby legs when I hit him. I fired a second to make sure, but it wasn't necessary. His already dead little chubby body just flopped once when struck. Well, then we unloaded our pistols into it at close range. . . just to make sure. You can't take chances with Killer Mutant Cannibal Zombie Groundhogs.

 

[G17_shooter]

I would highly recommend the Barnes Varmint Grenade.

 

[IN_Varmntr]

I've shot several hundreds of groundhogs.

HPs are great, but from my experience, ballistic tipped projectiles like Hornady V-Max's do the best job for a quick kill.

I grabbed a mag of FMJ by accident and it took 4 rounds to keep a groundhog from scattering towards his hole the other day. This was at less than 40 yards which most of my kills are from. Most of the time it's a single squeeze of the trigger with my 40gr V-Max loads and that's all she wrote.

That was the first time I've ever used FMJ on varmints. I'm going to make sure it's my last time too.

I would post a few pictures of what my 40gr V-Max loads do to a groundhog at 100yds but I'm not sure if they're allowed due to the graphic nature of the pictures.

 

[GlockRock]

I've shot several groundhogs on the farm and use a 22lr. A good head shot will do the job.

 

[l c gun guy]

Ya they will work but you need to try vmax its fun to blow them up

 

[miles2253]

I shot one at the base of the spine and he was dead before he hit the ground.

 

[Hemingway]

Man, I never knew there was so much thought put into groundhog shooting. Every one I've ever killed, I killed with a Savage 12 gauge pump and whatever shells I had laying around. They were as dead as Julius Caesar before they hit the ground.

 

[patience0830]

bunches

I have killed them with everything from the boots I was wearing to a hammer to a 22 rimfire and .222 rem. I've run over one or two with the tractor and even shot one out of a tree one time. I will recommend the v-max or ballistic tip bullets for clean one shot kills. My uncle used a .17 Ackley Bee for years. tiny entrance and no exit. they just died and fell over. I envy you guys with the target rich environments. I haven't seen a groundhog in about 12 years since we got coyotes.

 

[paperboy]

Use the 223 fmj and put the hammer down my good man!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HollowPoint]

Shot placement is the most critical factor, whether it is a .22 or a .223. I have killed several with a .22LF, and can't remember one getting away.

 

[samot]

yes

 

[lovemywoods]

PMC FMJ 55 grain worked pretty good on two muskrats recently!

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break_room/87733-two_more_muskrats_bite_the_dust.html