Why is talking about long-range archery so frowned upon?

[melensdad]

TERMINAL ENERGY.

For ethical hunting with a bullet the general agreement is that 1000 foot pounds of energy is the minimum ethical energy for deer size game. The military considers 500 foot pounds of energy as the minimum for killing humans.

That said, the farther the bullet flies the lower its terminal energy at the point of impact.

The same is true for an arrow. Take a 60 pound hunting bow and let fly an arrow, at 20 yards that arrow will pass through many targets but at 40 yards it will simply penetrate the target about 50% and at 75 yards it may only penetrate the target about 25%. (obviously this depends on the type/construction of the target) But the point is the same, there are ethical minimums which you want to consider.

So with that in mind would you deer hunt with a 25# draw weight bow or a 60# draw weight bow? Most would consider it unethical to use the 25# bow. Long distance hunting has the same effect as going down in bow draw weight. The longer the distance the less impact energy of the arrow.

Its NOT about your ability, it is about PHYSICS.

 

[melensdad]

Never run the number before, as I haven't shot much bow at all.

100 yards with a 300+ fps arrow is about a second flight time. Sound of the bow is about 1/4 second. So the deer has a 3/4 of a second reaction time to ruin your perfect aim.

50 yards is 1/2 of a second flight time and 1/8 of a second sound time, or 3/8 of a second reaction time.

25 yards is 1/4 of a second flight time and 1/16 of a second sound time. 3/16 of a second to react.

These numbers only get worse with more realistic high 200 fps bow speeds. . .

The problem with your math (and logic) is that your flight times are calculated on a constant speed and the reality is that the speed of an arrow slows DRAMATCIALLY with distance travelled. When long range rifle shooters look at bullets they consider the BC (ballistic coeficient) of the bullet they intend to shoot. I'm not sure that there are any reliable BC numbers available for arrows, especially hunting arrows/broadtips, but you can be darn sure that an arrow that starts out at 250 or 300 fps will be travelling dramatically slower at 100 yards.

As the terminal energy drops, the razor sharp arrow may still cut, but it won't cut as deep and it won't be nearly as effective as a fast moving arrow.

 

[indyjoe]

The problem with your math (and logic) is that your flight times are calculated on a constant speed and the reality is that the speed of an arrow slows DRAMATCIALLY with distance travelled. When long range rifle shooters look at bullets they consider the BC (ballistic coeficient) of the bullet they intend to shoot. I'm not sure that there are any reliable BC numbers available for arrows, especially hunting arrows/broadtips, but you can be darn sure that an arrow that starts out at 250 or 300 fps will be travelling dramatically slower at 100 yards.

As the terminal energy drops, the razor sharp arrow may still cut, but it won't cut as deep and it won't be nearly as effective as a fast moving arrow.

There are many problems with my math. Starting with faster than reality arrows. Even with these things, which make conditions unrealistically good, 50 yards is still iffy. I guess I should have mentioned that reality was much worse, but followup posts did that.

 

[AGarbers]

First, I agree with TrapperDave.
Second, a crossbow bolt is shorter and lighter than a normal compound bow arrow. As such it will actually start to loose energy and stability faster than a comperable vertical bow/arrow.
While 150 pounds sounds like a lot, the draw length on a crossbow is about half that of a compound. This means a 150-pound crossbow roughly equals a 70-pound compound bow.
Crossbow makers recommend keeping shots at 40 yards or less for wild game. In their words, they say to many things can happen while that arrow is in flight.

 

[djl02]

I didnt know long range archery was frowned upon. The 70 and 80 yard shots in comp was usually what got you the win or lose.Use to love shooting NFAA

 

[Fishersjohn48]

So how many deer have you KILLED at 100+yards? How many have you wounded at that distance? One shot at 75+- yards that killed a doe sounds like good preperation and a LOT of luck. As others have said, the velocity/energy does not compute. To me it is unethical and goes against the spirit of bowhunting. Keep killing those paper plates at 100-110 yards though. Great practice for when you get a good shot at a deer within an ethical distance.

 

[tyrajam]

TERMINAL ENERGY.

For ethical hunting with a bullet the general agreement is that 1000 foot pounds of energy is the minimum ethical energy for deer size game. The military considers 500 foot pounds of energy as the minimum for killing humans.

That said, the farther the bullet flies the lower its terminal energy at the point of impact.

The same is true for an arrow. Take a 60 pound hunting bow and let fly an arrow, at 20 yards that arrow will pass through many targets but at 40 yards it will simply penetrate the target about 50% and at 75 yards it may only penetrate the target about 25%. (obviously this depends on the type/construction of the target) But the point is the same, there are ethical minimums which you want to consider.

So with that in mind would you deer hunt with a 25# draw weight bow or a 60# draw weight bow? Most would consider it unethical to use the 25# bow. Long distance hunting has the same effect as going down in bow draw weight. The longer the distance the less impact energy of the arrow.

Its NOT about your ability, it is about PHYSICS.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. A bullet kills by tissue and organ damage While an arrow kills by slicing tissue and causing blood loss. That is why kinetic energy is a worthless measurement for deer-.most bows are putting out 50-75 ft pounds of Kinetic Energy to start with. Wait until you get to 30 yards and it is ay lower. You don't need KE to kill a deer with a bow. A sharp broadhead will pass through lungs at 20 yards and 120 yards, it doesn't take that much pressure.

 

[Lammchop93]

If you know your limits and how far you can get a clean kill, I say more power to ya. My max is 40 yards where I feel comfortable shooting. If you can shoot 100 yards and get a nice clean kill, why not.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

Why not is because the deer can move almost its whole body length in the time it takes for the arrow to get there. And that's with them just mosying along. I don't care how fast the bow .
Your chances of wounding and not recovering the deer at 100 yards are aay higher at extended ranges. Shoot, another deer could step in front of your deer after you release the arrow.
In my opinion it's just plain irresponsible.

 

[BrandonHtwo0]

because deer arent targets, their living creatures and rarely stand still very long. Because that one out of five arrows you shoot goes into their guts. because we owe it them to take ethical shots. because archery is not about how far away you can hit something, its about how close you can get undetected.

I love long range shooting, but its not for hunting. If you feel the need to reach out n touch one, or are incapable of getting within a reasonable range, use a gun.

This.

I think its a question of ethics, being humane, and responsible. Im sure the OP is an excellent shot, but its just not possible to account for everything with a wild living animal.

 

[EPD1102]

So how many deer have you KILLED at 100+yards? How many have you wounded at that distance? One shot at 75+- yards that killed a doe sounds like good preperation and a LOT of luck. As others have said, the velocity/energy does not compute. To me it is unethical and goes against the spirit of bowhunting. Keep killing those paper plates at 100-110 yards though. Great practice for when you get a good shot at a deer within an ethical distance.

I've never shot at a deer at 100 yards with a bow. I've shot and killed several deer in the 70-yard range. When I had that rig, I only had pins for 30, 50, and 70 yards for hunting. I had an identical rig that I used for competition that had two additional pins for 90 and 110 yards. 70 yards was my limit for hunting even though I practiced out to 110 for competition. Most people think 70 is too far but I never felt unethical about it based on my skills and experiences.
I have never had an arrow that didn't completely penetrate the deer, even at 70 yards. I've never had an arrow-shot deer that ran more than about 75 yards. I've never seen a deer "jump" or "duck" an arrow. Maybe my deer are a little slow or they just haven't been missed to have learned what the noise was. I never took shots that I thought were careless or unethical based on my abilities. I've also never shot a deer with a bow that I didn't find. I did shoot a deer last year with my .458 SOCOM that we tracked for about 1/4 mile and never found and it REALLY bugged me. I'd still like to know how that deer got away from me based on the shot and the bloodtrail.
If anyone is interested, the rigs that I used back then were Hoyt FPS Plus bows set at 96 pounds shooting 25" 2213 arrows with Thunderhead 125 broadheads. I was getting about 327 fps back then which was incredible. It's pretty common nowadays. This was back in the late 80s through the mid-90s and that was about the fastest rig out there that would hold together. Prior to that, I had been shooting PSE Mach-Flite 4s at 106 pounds but I kept breaking risers (Go figure). I then dropped down to 96 and switched to Hoyts.
Nowadays, I only shoot 86 pounds because I have a hard time finding bows that will go heavier and because I'm getting older and more broken-down myself. I don't use overdraws and short arrows any more but I don't need to because the bows are more efficient.
I still like archery but I shoot a recurve nowadays more than my compounds but I haven't hunted with a recurve in MANY years; I just like shooting it for practice. I'm thinking about trying a crossbow but I've heard different things as some people have mentioned that crossbow bolts will lose energy more quickly than compound arrows.
My buddies who know what my skill levels used to be and probably can easily be again say I'll be losing effective range with a crossbow. I'm trying to decide between a Barnett Predator crossbow at 375 fps, an Excalibur Exomax recurve crossbow at 350 fps, or a Mathews Monster MR7 with 80-pound limbs that will probably shoot about 350 fps.
I will still practice at farther distances than I will hunt at. I will base my shot range on my abilities and it will still probably be farther than most people would feel comfortable with. Oh well, bring on some more flaming if you must and thanks to those who have kept an open mind about this discussion.

 

[Hookeye]

The old Mach 4...............buddy blew two risers, I blew one. Both over 80 lbs.
IIRC he even blew the newer changed gate riser (beefed section at front of shelf).
Fun stuff back in the day

 

[melensdad]

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. A bullet kills by tissue and organ damage While an arrow kills by slicing tissue and causing blood loss. That is why kinetic energy is a worthless measurement for deer-.most bows are putting out 50-75 ft pounds of Kinetic Energy to start with. Wait until you get to 30 yards and it is ay lower. You don't need KE to kill a deer with a bow. A sharp broadhead will pass through lungs at 20 yards and 120 yards, it doesn't take that much pressure.

Uh, no. I have a clear understanding. I was simply trying to provide a reasonable correlation.

The reason you need energy/velocity is for penetration to the vitals. Hit a deer square in a rib bone with a broadpoint and if the arrow has a reasonable velocity it will deflect into the space between the bones and still penetrate. But if the velocity is too low it won't penetrate and may deflect off with a surface wound.

There is a reason that many hunting lodges require draw weights of 50# or more on a bow.

 

[Hookeye]

Low V stuff can work well. Check some of the Ashby tests

There's more to penetration than KE/ velocity.

 

[Elkaholic]

I say if your equipment and ability is good enough to make an ethical kill then shoot away.