Why All Guns Are Always Loaded: It's NOT Just You

[JettaKnight]

I have no issue continuing the discussion with the intent of improving safety. I doubt anything you and I will discuss here will have any kind of impact. You seem to believe that a majority of the NDs that happen are a result of following rule #1 to the exclusion of rules 2-4. Could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

I'd field this one. It seems to me the vast majority of these ND's revolve around the shooter, in a post incident report, claiming to believe the firearm was unloaded. It's a safe assumption that they operated on the assumption that an unloaded gun is harmless and therefore may be handled with little concern of safety. I mean, what's it matter what you do with the gun, it's unloaded!

In reality, the gun was loaded. And their cavalier attitude to safety resulted the death. In this case an officer lost his wife and child due not only to the false assumption of being an inert firearm, but not continuing to follow the other rules. None of the other rules should be invalidated due the condition of the firearm.

To put in another way, once rule #1 is proved to be invalid by checking that the firearm is unloaded, all other rules may be ignored. Or, this appears to be the mindset of the subjects in question here.

The more deviations from a safe gun handling procedure, the more the risks of death go up.

• Pointing in a unsafe direction? Yes, increase risk.
• Pulling the trigger to dissemble? Yes, increase risk again.
• Not knowing your wife is on the other side of that wall? Yes, increase risk yet again.
• If the gun is loaded, risk increases to a 100% likelihood of a GSW (death may occur)

I'm a pragmatist and will state that we all make occasional deviations from safety rules, but a singular, temporary, intentional deviation from ONE rule is acceptable at times. Admit it, if you're a 4 rule ardent, then anytime you "test the trigger" you are deviating from rule #1. But, if you stick the remainder of the rules then this deviation is acceptable and the likelihood of a GSW is very, very low.


I'm with ATM in that I find rule #1 isn't instructive, it's descriptive. And as such doesn't readily lend itself to the purposes of teaching others safe handling. To state the rule #1 another way, "if you pull the trigger, it might (or will) go bang!" That doesn't tell me what to do. Maybe for those "intuitive thinkers" this is all it takes, but not everyone learns the way you do. Linear thinkers need the other rules. (Well, we all need the other rules in some ways)


PS Yes, I did just read a book on communication and MBTI. This argument (so often repeated on INGO) makes complete sense to me now.

 

[JettaKnight]

Is there a write-up on these barrels here on INGO?
How much does the angle matter? Sand seems to be preferred, correct?

Mine isn't nearly as fancy as the photo. I simply have a 6 1/2 gallon bucket filled with sand. It sits right by the gun safe.

The angle is merely ergonomic - it's more natural to hold a gun at a 45 deg downward angle than straight up an down.

 

[ATM]

You do what best for you Bro and I will do whats best for me and mine. And since I have several years on you and I am able to type with both hands I will have to say the FOUR rules has worked for me. Believe what you want but 2-4 is supported by 1. They are not replacements.

I'm obviously more interested in how we teach the next generation to be safe with firearms than convincing you to change something that works for you.

If all you take away from this discussion is that our current set of rules is not perfect (as evidenced by all the negligent actions from people who actually do know what the rules are), I'll leave you to determine how best to improve them if you disagree with my thoughts on the matter.

 

[indiucky]

Of course all guns are always loaded, but I wonder who the first person was to think that designing a gun that required you to pull the trigger to disassemble it was a good idea.

An Austrian engineer who wasn't into guns?

 

[indiucky]

WWMTS?

What would Mark Twain say?

"Don't meddle with old unloaded firearms. They are the most deadly and unerring things that have ever been created by man. You don't have to take any pains at all with them; you don't have to have a rest, you don't have to have any sights on the gun, you don't have to take aim, even. No, you just pick out a relative and bang away, and you are sure to get him. A youth who can't hit a cathedral at thirty yards with a Gatling gun in three-quarters of an hour, can take up an old empty musket and bag his mother every time at a hundred. Think what Waterloo would have been if one of the armies had been boys armed with old rusty muskets supposed not to be loaded, and the other army had been composed of their female relations. The very thought of it makes me shudder."
- Advice to Youth speech, 4/15/1882


I have posted this quote a couple of times and continue to post it because there are always new folks coming on....

 

[Bunnykid68]

Rule #1 should be rule #4 at minimum

 

[Gluemanz28]

I'm obviously more interested in how we teach the next generation to be safe with firearms than convincing you to change something that works for you.

If all you take away from this discussion is that our current set of rules is not perfect (as evidenced by all the negligent actions from people who actually do know what the rules are), I'll leave you to determine how best to improve them if you disagree with my thoughts on the matter.

I will agree that the four rules are not the be all to to gun safety and proper handling. They are a foundation to build upon. That is why we suggest to all new shooters to get proper training.

When I taught my kids to drive over 10 years ago I didn't just tell them that they need to stop at a stop sign, use turn signals, obey speed limits and watch for children running into the road chasing a ball. I got in the car with them and taught them how to navigate all of the fore mentioned actions.

I have done the same with gun safety (1) and proper handling (2-4) for my children and Grandchildren. I even take people from church to the VIP section of the Range in to give them basic handgun instructions. I Start with the Four rules and expand on them. I furnish the range time guns and ammo at no charge to them. I am not patting myself on the back by any means. What I am saying is that I have no problem investing in helping to educate people.

 

[OWGEM]

Sure, but once it's unloaded I don't just ignore the safe gun handling rules as many others do.

What? You treat it as if it was loaded?

 

[Bunnykid68]

What? You treat it as if it was loaded?

Rules 2-4 kind of force you to do that.

The NRA provides a similar set of rules:

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use. —The National Rifle Association, The fundamental NRA rules for safe gun handling

 

[ATM]

What? You treat it as if it was loaded?

No, I treat it like it's a gun. Guns should be handled according to rules 2-4.

How much effort are you willing to expend pretending to miss this rather simple yet important distinction?

 

[RUSH2112]

Geez, just check the damn chamber before messing with your guns. No bullet? guess what....it's not loaded.

 

[ATM]

Geez, just check the damn chamber before messing with your guns. No bullet? guess what....it's not loaded.

Sure, but are you implying that you're one of those people who ignore safe gun handling practices when it's not loaded?

What exactly do you mean by "messing with your guns"?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Oh, look, it keeps happening.

Even if you live in a shed in Alabama, you can find a bucket of sand. Don't let this be you:

Man, girlfriend injured in shooting - Decatur Daily: Local News

 

[Bunnykid68]

Oh, look, it keeps happening.

Even if you live in a shed in Alabama, you can find a bucket of sand. Don't let this be you:

Man, girlfriend injured in shooting - Decatur Daily: Local News

And as long as people violate multiple rules it will keep happening.

 

[nighthawk80]

Hmm, I guess I didn't know the four rules had an order. I just always understood that they were, as rules, equal to each other in importance. That if you followed all four rules (not in a particular order but all together) you were staying/creating the safest environment possible for yourself and others. Per wikipediea:

The rules of gun safety follow from this mindset. There are many variations, and one of them is the Four Rules introduced by Colonel Jeff Cooper, which are:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.—Jeff Cooper[SUP][1][/SUP]

The NRA provides a similar set of rules:

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.—The National Rifle Association, The fundamental NRA rules for safe gun handling[SUP][2][/SUP]

The Canadian Firearms Program uses the concept of The Four Firearm ACTS:

1. Assume every firearm is loaded.
2. Control the muzzle direction at all times.
3. Trigger finger off trigger and out of trigger guard.
4. See that the firearm is unloaded. PROVE it safe.—Canadian Firearms Centre, The Four ACTS of Firearm Safety[SUP][3][/SUP]

 

[indiucky]

What exactly do you mean by "messing with your guns"?

Dry Firing Smith and Wesson Model 29-3 at the TV screen during the Dirty Harry Marathon on AMC??? Not that I did that or anything....

 

[JettaKnight]

Geez, just check the damn chamber before messing with your guns. No bullet? guess what....it's not loaded.

Stories abound of people who check the chamber then drop the slide....on a full magazine.

If you simple treat a gun as a gun and not differentiate your handling for a loaded gun or unloaded gun, you're far less likely to have a ND - or a ND that results in a GSW.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'll kick the hornet's nest. The people so caught up in the semantics are also the least likely to be dangerous anyway. Just like we can continue to debate among ourselves what "secure" means, someone will leave their gun under the sofa. That guy isn't participating in the lock box vs retention holster vs keyed safe debate. I grew up around guns and didn't learn there were 4 rules until pretty late in life, relatively speaking. I was taught to not point the gun at anything I didn't want to shoot and to not take it off safe and touch the trigger until I was ready to shoot. I was never told "if its loaded" or "assume its loaded" or anything like that. I was just taught it was a gun and to treat it like it was a gun.

I don't pretend every gun is loaded. I don't need to, because as ATM says I treat an empty gun like a loaded gun.

I also don't treat a gun that's mechanically unable to fire like I do a loaded/unloaded gun. If I want to inspect a bore, putting one of those fiber optic doo-dads in the chamber both renders the weapon unable to fire, proves 100% there is no cartridge in the chamber, and provides light to see what you're looking at. I can remove the bolt on a bolt gun, swing the cylinder out and hold it out on a revolver, etc. Any weapon can be rendered unable to fire with a few seconds of work or with a short length of nylon rope

 

[ChalupaCabras]

We are adults here. Everyone knows that guns are not actually always loaded.

THAT said, we are all adults here. It should be obvious to everyone what the benefits of treating them like they are loaded are, and why they should always be said to be so.

Debate beyond that is childish.

 

[Vince49]

Clearing barrel.

Is there a write-up on these barrels here on INGO?
How much does the angle matter? Sand seems to be preferred, correct?

Here is a link to the post I made when I built it. 45 degree angle works.

Link: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...1741-anniversary-present-clearing-barrel.html