Which caliber AR for long range shooting?

[ROLEXrifleman]

That is not my style.

If I want to call someone a dumbass then I will do so.

In this case I simply answered the question, nothing more. There were calibers that were mentioned by several folks that didn't fit the platform. Not everyone here is an expert on what caliber fits what platform so I simply included that for clarity.

How about we agree to move on, no harm - no foul, and presume this to be a simple misunderstanding?

I'm all in

I'm a straight shooter too. Maybe I'm starting my rag today!

 

[shibumiseeker]

I'm all in

I'm a straight shooter too. Maybe I'm starting my rag today!

I was wondering. When you made your second post in this thread I was asking myself WTF? So I checked out your previous posts thinking maybe you were just a troll, and every single one of your prior posts were fine, participating normally in the technical forums, so I was really like WTF?
I didn't read Melensdad's post as being anything but helpful, so it was really making me wonder what I was missing.

Kudos for you for working it out with folks rather than escalating further.

 

[linkpimp]

308 hands down.. If you have $1,600 budgeted get a M1A, if your under $1,000 get a Saiga or FAL, if your have over $2,000 get a RFB..

Regardless of witch 308 you get you will need a nice scope to get you out that far.. What glass are your looking at?

 

[femurphy77]

Sorry for the confusion, yes I have AR15 lowers. I was planning on building a truck gun with the one lower and hadn't really thought about why I bought the others other than they are consecutive serial numbers. I have always enjoyed shooting the longer distances for fun, no faygo bottle is safe from my garand with iron sights at 350 yards. I thought it would be neat to build a long range shooter with one of the other lowers but it seems that this is the wrong platform for that use. The M1A is a strong contender for my safe as I used to shoot one (an M14) in HS JROTC! I haven't really firmed on anything yet, I would still like to go to some of the long distance shoots and observe, you know see what the big dogs are runnin'. This is a purchase that probably won't be made until next spring so I'll keep reading, listening and learning.

 

[6birds]

Finally, consider the 6.5 Grendel. AT LONG RANGE it actually holds more energy and greater velocity than the 308. It is commercially available as loaded ammo, Hornady just added it to their product line this winter. Ballistic coefficients are astounding and the inherent accuracy is excellent. Uppers are sold under a variety of names including 6.5 Sporter, 6.5 Grendel, .264LB, etc. All are the same they are all 6.5 Grendels. The name is trademarked so only Alexander Arms and those folks who license the name can use the name, but the rounds and guns are the same.

+1!
I have a Les Baer in 6.5 Grendel, serious accuracy, a real Wyoming coyote rig. Brass is showing up all over the place, and Berger has an entire line of 6.5 pills, enjoy!

 

[XDinmyXJ]

 

[aclark]

Sorry for the confusion, yes I have AR15 lowers. I was planning on building a truck gun with the one lower and hadn't really thought about why I bought the others other than they are consecutive serial numbers. I have always enjoyed shooting the longer distances for fun, no faygo bottle is safe from my garand with iron sights at 350 yards. I thought it would be neat to build a long range shooter with one of the other lowers but it seems that this is the wrong platform for that use. The M1A is a strong contender for my safe as I used to shoot one (an M14) in HS JROTC! I haven't really firmed on anything yet, I would still like to go to some of the long distance shoots and observe, you know see what the big dogs are runnin'. This is a purchase that probably won't be made until next spring so I'll keep reading, listening and learning.

The AR platform is a very precise platform. Is it going to be as precise as a bolt gun? Probably not, but if you want a semi-auto long range rig, then you will be very capable with the AR platform. I don't have any personal experience with the platform for long range, but everything I have read points to the 6.5 Grendal past ~400yds and under that the 6.8SPC has some good reviews.
I am looking into the 6.5 for my next build after seeing some of the builds around here. Do a search (here and other AR sites), and really learn what this platform is capable of now that you have some starting points.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

Why so? A wildcat cost no more than any standard round to load unless you go with something so bizarre you have to have the bullets custom made. I load for a 22 Cheetah, a 300 Whisper, a 375/338, and a 450 Alaskan. In most cases the dies were off the shelf, they load on my regular press using standard bullets and powders. The only necessity is that you do reload which is cheaper than buying standard ammo anyways.

+1!
I have a Les Baer in 6.5 Grendel, serious accuracy, a real Wyoming coyote rig. Brass is showing up all over the place, and Berger has an entire line of 6.5 pills, enjoy!

How's the popcorn?

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=20323&categoryString=653***690***

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=10207&categoryString=653***690***

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=7556&categoryString=653***690***

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseCategories.aspx?tabId=3&categoryId=690&categoryString=653***

Listed above are links from midway. 1st two are of 6.5 grendel and 6.5x47. Each one has 1 page of options.
Next link is for .308, it has 12 pages of options and the last is of all available ammo. 22 Cheetah, a 300 Whisper are not even mentioned in the total list of available ammo.

6.5x47 has no options under $30 per 20, while the only value option listed for 6.5 is $14 per 20 and has average customer satisfaction.

While we can have a short debate about superior balistic performance we have to consider what options you have in projectiles and remember that the .308 tops out with a much heavier option than the others.
With that said, here is a member asking for input on which caliber would be best for long range meaning to me he does not have any experiance with these "wildcat" ( remember wildcat to me means anything not readily available or available at a premium price) also flagging me to say while he may be a reloader he is not tooled up to reload the "wildcat" rounds mentioned and that in itself would cause an increase in initial $$ to be spent in order to benifit from reduced cost in ammo.
Further more, had he had experiance or been exposed to these other rounds available for long range use in the AR15 platform he would not have posted a thread called, " Which caliber AR for long range shooting?"
Now, seeing that he is building an AR rather than buy leads me to believe he has TOTAL COST on the brain and $$ plays a factor in his decision.
SO.......... why through out a list of calibers to this type of shooter when all they are looking for is the lowest priced alternative for long range shooting that trumps .223.

In conclusion ladies and gentleman of the jury, while my original post does not directly address his current AR lower it does address his need to get into a ballisticly supperior cartrdige over .223 with cost effeciancy as the primary driving force. While other cartridges are available no other will provide a lower start up cost in all areas, actual firearm, available commercial ammo, relaoding components, reloading dies, etc than the .308. I will even be so bold as to say this member doesnt even reload!

The defense rests it's case

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

And as a final note..... why even reference Midway USA?
because, if Midway, as one of the largest stores has ammo at X price or doesnt even carry them, imagine what your local stores may have, may not have or be charging! Not everyone has a Cabellas, Gander or other Big Box near them and I'd hate to see the look a Wally World employee gives you when you ask for 6.5x47 Lapua.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

And Finaly Finaly.........

I just looked at femurphy77 about me tab in his profile, and based off his interests I'd bet $10 the guy doesnt relaod but has some bad ass scuba equipment.


G&*damn I'm on fire! Someone hose me down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[aclark]

Wow really working on that post count huh? Next time try using 1 post you respond...kthx.

As to your irrebuttable responses to this thread, there are a couple long standing sayings that I can think of.
"Buy once, cry once."
"It pays in the long run."

That being stated, and reading the information that the OP gave us, he is not in the market for a .308. He cannot, I REPEAT CANNOT, build a .308 out of his current lower. He can however build it for the 6mm platform, as well as some others. I guess we can bicker back and forth all day as to which is best, but until the OP responds with a bit more info, ie does he reload, does he want an AR-15 or AR-10, whats his total budget, etc we cannot give him a hands down best solution. HOWEVER, we can give him the best solution that will work with the info provided, and AGAIN that IS NOT .308.

 

[melensdad]

+1!
I have a Les Baer in 6.5 Grendel, serious accuracy, a real Wyoming coyote rig. Brass is showing up all over the place, and Berger has an entire line of 6.5 pills, enjoy!

Yup the Berger bullets are amazing!

I don't have any personal experience with the platform for long range, but everything I have read points to the 6.5 Grendal past ~400yds and under that the 6.8SPC has some good reviews.

The 6.8 is more like a 225 yard gun assuming you'd want to use it for hunting, at least that is about the limit for the factory loads if you want to maintain 1000 ft lbs of energy on the target.

Out of an AR15 platform gun, the 6.5 Grendel is really sweet and it pretty much maximizes the platform's long range abilities, and can, with the right loads, exceed the 308 in velocity and energy at longer ranges while offering slightly less drift and drop.

 

[Brocksdad]

Not to sound like a broken record here but 308 is the best round for long range.

Best of luck to ya!

 

[femurphy77]

Ouch!!! Man I didn't mean to stir up such a hornets nest! I would have thrown out some more parameters but I am so new in this area of shooting that I don't know enough yet to ask intelligent questions, that's one of the reasons I need to get out to some of the long range shoots to see what's going on. The idea of building as opposed to buying off the shelf just had an appeal to me, as in "ain't that neat? I built it myself"

I am a big fan of old military weapons and that influences my firearms purchases and is why I initially mentioned building an AR for long range. It isn't old school but neat nonetheless. The M1A has always had a warm spot in my heart but hadn't considered it for this type of project for some reason. I'm not opposed to a bolt gun modern or old school but going back to the first line in this paragraph tends to push me away from Remmy 700's and such.

While I'm not a money is no object person I do weigh the costs in relationship to how much actual use I'll get out of it. It would be nice if I could get into rifle and optics for up to $2K. I also don't reload yet but have been saving my brass for years now and the bucket is getting full so that may start happening sooner than the long range project.

And I don't know how bad-ass it is but I do have some EXPENSIVE scuba gear

 

[melensdad]

Not to sound like a broken record here but 308 is the best round for long range.

Best of luck to ya!

OK but prove it.

Here is a ballistics table, show me where the 308 is clearly the BEST round for LONG RANGE and, as a follow up, show me how to feed one through an AR15, which is what the OP has for a platform.

Now, using real data, not opinion, please prove it.

 

[ROLEXrifleman]

Wow really working on that post count huh? Next time try using 1 post you respond...kthx.

I'm realy on a tear with that post count huh! Must want to flood that F/S section with more Carcano rifles or that Shooter title under my screen name.




And in late breaking news this AM:

He cannot, I REPEAT CANNOT, build a .308 out of his current lower.

And as far as teh age old sayings, we all know how mant times they are followed!

As to your irrebuttable responses to this thread, there are a couple long standing sayings that I can think of.
"Buy once, cry once."
"It pays in the long run.".

And I edited this post just for you, that way I don't get silly on my post count... all 70 of them!



And just for the record... I never said this !! LOL

Not to sound like a broken record here but 308 is the best round for long range.

Best of luck to ya!

 

[Litlratt]

First, stay far far away from the 6.8 SPC round. It is NOT a long range round and the ballistic coefficient is horrible. There are ZERO competitive long range shooters using this round. It is pathetic out past a couple hundred yards. The same is true for the 223/5.56.

Second, consider the 243 WSSM (Winchester Super Short Magnum). Bolts are proprietary and made by Olympic Arms. The round is probably the highest velocity 6mm you can stuff into an AR15, the slight downside is the case length prevents you from feeding the very best of the best low drag long range projectiles.

Nice post melens, however i disagree with a couple of your beliefs.
I know nothing of the 6.8SPC, but the 223/5.56 is alive and well in NRA type long range matches as well as Palma matches.
The Farr and Porter Trophy Matches are shot with AR15 Service rifles as well as M1As, Garands, etc. Some of the best SR shooters in the country are competing with ARs in 223 at 1000 yards.
600 yards is considered mid range and the 223 with 80 grain bullets is very effective for paper punching.

I have an Oly upper in 243WSSM that was built for shooting 200 to 600 yards. The barrel was swapped for a Krieger. Slow fire prone is shot from 600 to 1000 yards. You are only allowed to load a single round at a time so the magazine length does not prohibit you from shooting 107s in these matches.

308 hands down.. If you have $1,600 budgeted get a M1A, if your under $1,000 get a Saiga or FAL, if your have over $2,000 get a RFB..

Regardless of witch 308 you get you will need a nice scope to get you out that far.. What glass are your looking at?

Glass has nothing to do with how far a rifle will shoot accurately.

 

[selynn]

First, stay far far away from the 6.8 SPC round. It is NOT a long range round and the ballistic coefficient is horrible. There are ZERO competitive long range shooters using this round. It is pathetic out past a couple hundred yards. The same is true for the 223/5.56.



I have to disagree. I have a POF 6.8 SPC 16" that is about a 200 yards gun** HOWEVER** I built custom upper with 20" barrel that I use on the POF AR15 lower that is a sub 1 MOA gun and darned accurate out to 500 yards. I do shoot custom loads out of the 20" as well which make a big difference. While I agree that the BC is not great and it does not have the energy of a .308 it is VERY doable past a couple of hundred yards. It was just a project that I wanted to try and for me it has worked out wonderfully and is a "hoot" to shoot.

 

[Stainer]

This has been a really educational thread for me, aside from the bickering back in forth, I now have decided that I will be building a 6.5 grendel soon. I have seen a lot on many different rounds.

I would like to throw out that the OP states that he wants to punch paper in the 400-800 yard. If that is all, and i mean all, i know for a fact you can punch paper at 546 yards with a 5.56. Like I said, there may not be a lot of punch behind it, but military trains to punch paper at 500 meters(546 yards) with 5.56. It can easily be done, and I would be willing to say you could push back to 600 with not much trouble. Figure in windage and you will be good.

With that said, I still think it would be cool to have a 6.5, 6.8, .308, any other cool round that I don't have something in.

 

[melensdad]

Nice post melens, however i disagree with a couple of your beliefs.
I know nothing of the 6.8SPC, but the 223/5.56 is alive and well in NRA type long range matches as well as Palma matches.
The Farr and Porter Trophy Matches are shot with AR15 Service rifles as well as M1As, Garands, etc. Some of the best SR shooters in the country are competing with ARs in 223 at 1000 yards.
600 yards is considered mid range and the 223 with 80 grain bullets is very effective for paper punching.

No argument from me that a 233 will punch paper at those ranges. Don't ask it to knock down a steel ram or set of a reactive target like tannerite at 600 yards. So I'd say we are both in reasonable agreement. However the thread is asking for a great round for long range and the 223 is clearly not that choice. I'm not saying its not possible to use one, I'm saying its not ideal and there are better choices for AR15 rifles. Why would I recommend a round that is perhaps ranked #4 or #5 on the list when there are clearly several better choices? BTW, you mention Palma and does that not require the use of single shot bolt guns while this thread regards an AR15 based build?

I have an Oly upper in 243WSSM that was built for shooting 200 to 600 yards. The barrel was swapped for a Krieger. Slow fire prone is shot from 600 to 1000 yards. You are only allowed to load a single round at a time so the magazine length does not prohibit you from shooting 107s in these matches.

Right, I did suggest that a 243 WSSM would be an ideal long range AR15 based upper. So I totally agree with you here.

First, stay far far away from the 6.8 SPC round. It is NOT a long range round and the ballistic coefficient is horrible. There are ZERO competitive long range shooters using this round. It is pathetic out past a couple hundred yards.[/U][/B] The same is true for the 223/5.56.

I have to disagree. I have a POF 6.8 SPC 16" that is about a 200 yards gun** HOWEVER** I built custom upper with 20" barrel that I use on the POF AR15 lower that is a sub 1 MOA gun and darned accurate out to 500 yards. I do shoot custom loads out of the 20" as well which make a big difference. While I agree that the BC is not great and it does not have the energy of a .308 it is VERY doable past a couple of hundred yards.

Actually I don't think we really disagree too much.

You agreed that the ballistic coefficient is lousy. So we agree there.

You agreed that the energy levels drop at 200+ yards. So we agree there.

Now again, I'll go back to the OP where he asks what we would recommend for a long range AR round. Clearly the two points above make the 6.8 a substandard round compared to the 6mmAR, 243 WSSM and the 6.5 Grendel. So that said, I think we can also both agree that while it is possible to shoot most any caliber at most any range there are some that are better choices. The 6.8 is clearly not a great choice and the 3 others I listed are very good/great options for an AR15 based gun at long range. There are a couple other choices I might pick before a 6.8 and one of those would be a standard 223/5.56.