Where I am coming from

[mercop]

On 07FEB12 my fatal shooting will have occurred 12 years ago. Since I pulled the trigger I have felt like Mulder from the X Files, the truth is out there. What I learned that cold, dark night about myself and others created an unquenchable thirst to reconcile how we train and the reality of how humans actually react. I am not just talking about shooting but in response to all interpersonal combat.

At the time I had been two my first firearms instructors course as well as on the SWAT team for two years. I felt that I was not only more trained than the average officer but my mindset was better. The way that I explain it was that I felt like I had been trained to throw a football through a tire to prepare me to play in the NFL.

It forced me to take a hard look at all training from that point forward in a whole new way. The best way that I could put it is that the majority of traditional training was like trying to run a windows XP program on a windows 98 machine. Training is too often put forward without understanding the human mind and body.

As far as taking another human life...if it does not bother you than IMHO you are a sociopath. If you want to hurt another human you are a sociopath. Those people I know personally that have pulled the trigger fit into one of two groups. Those that know it affects them and work towards dealing with it, and those who think they are fine and end up having it ruin their lives but attribute it to everything but the root cause.

That is why all the tough guy "rather to be judged by 12 than carried by six" gun show t-shirt mantra does nothing but disgust me. The same is true for people posting how they will respond when something happens. The truth is you don't know.- George

 

[Kitty]

congrats on surviving.

 

[ab1]

Excellent post...the last two paragraphs bear repeating to a lot of people. I don't know you, but I am very glad you survived and are still working on ways to cope with this life changing event.

 

[Benny]

Another great thread as always.

I have one little question though...While I have never said the phrase, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" I don't quite understand how that is considered a tough guy attitude. Self-preservation is a natural instinct and I don't know a single person that would rather die than kill a bad guy in SD. I certainly fit into that category and I don't have a "tough guy" attitude at all. One of the last things I'd ever want to do is take another human being's life, but I wouldn't hesitate if my life and more importantly my family's life was on the line.

I'm not a sociopath, so I'm certain I'd pay for it in mental anguish later, but I'd have to imagine it would be better than being dead. I can't raise my son from the grave and/or if something happened to him, I'd just as soon be dead.

 

[mercop]

At the time of the shooting I was at work "relaxing" by getting back to normal. The previous SEP my son was born five weeks early and I almost him and my wife during childbirth. In OCT he did die at Johns Hopkins and they brought him back. He was on the heart lung bypass machine for six days before his first open heart (he has had two and has to have another in the next two years). I bring this up to illustrate the fact that things don't just happen when you are at your best and feeling ready to deal with anything.

The last normal thing I remember was sitting in the parking lot of a housing project drinking my first cup of coffee when the call came out for a man with a gun.

My life is now dedicated to training myself and others for dealing with situations I pray will not arise.- George

 

[mercop]

Another great thread as always.

I have one little question though...While I have never said the phrase, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" I don't quite understand how that is considered a tough guy attitude. Self-preservation is a natural instinct and I don't know a single person that would rather die than kill a bad guy in SD. I certainly fit into that category and I don't have a "tough guy" attitude at all. One of the last things I'd ever want to do is take another human being's life, but I wouldn't hesitate if my life and more importantly my family's life was on the line.

I'm not a sociopath, so I'm certain I'd pay for it in mental anguish later, but I'd have to imagine it would be better than being dead. I can't raise my son from the grave and/or if something happened to him, I'd just as soon be dead.

Benny, I apologize for painting with such a broad brush. I explain my mindset the following way. If someone decides to harm me, anyone I love, or am intrusted to protect. I have no problem with killing them and eating a piece of pie. I feel I can say that because I have done the mental heavy lifting when it comes to knowing at what point I have no choice by practicing my mantra of awareness, avoidance, and as a last resort aggression. I am just of the opinion that people don't consider the realities of what it means to use force. Sorry, I think I am getting a bit emotional.- George

 

[Benny]

Benny, I apologize for painting with such a broad brush. I explain my mindset the following way. If someone decides to harm me, anyone I love, or am intrusted to protect. I have no problem with killing them and eating a piece of pie. I feel I can say that because I have done the mental heavy lifting when it comes to knowing at what point I have no choice by practicing my mantra of awareness, avoidance, and as a last resort aggression. I am just of the opinion that people don't consider the realities of what it means to use force. Sorry, I think I am getting a bit emotional.- George

I completely understand and no apology is needed; I was just a bit indifferent about the example you used.

You are exactly right though. Hell, there is a member here that said he'd gun his girlfriend's sister down if she ever stepped foot on his property again because she stole some lip gloss from his house.

 

[mercop]

Those are the words of a little man.

 

[lovemachine]

Everytime I read a thread by mercop, it makes me realize how little I know and am ready for. And I always learn something valuable to add to my own training.

 

[mercop]

Thanks for the kind words. As I used to joke with the guys that I worked with when they used to break my balls about my training addiction " I am only a conduit for tactical information"

 

[scottka]

I'm not sure I've ever been actively involved in any of your threads, but nonetheless, I always appreciate what you bring to the table. Very few can call upon the experience that you have had. Thanks for your contributions and glad you came out on top.

+1

 

[Jack Burton]

I have read numerous stories and have had many people personally tell me that when they were held up at gunpoint and "knew" they were about to die it pretty much destroyed their life for anywhere from several weeks to even years. Sleeplessness, fear of going outside, fear of strangers, a sense of hopelessness are just some of the symptoms that some people seem to exhibit "after the fact."

Yet I, who had a .44 magmum pressed against my belly by a junkie who had nothing to lose by shooting me, went out on a date that night afterwards with my girlfriend, slept like a baby afterwards, and never really dwelled on it at all. Ever. It happened, I survived, it's in the past.

Point is people react to different situations in different ways. There is no cookie cutter... no box that is labeled "single and only right way" to deal with extremely emotional and traumatic issues. I don't know how I would react if I had to take another person's life. But if I don't react the way that another person does that makes me neither better nor worse than him. It just means that I react differently.

Based upon other incidences in my life and experiences that I have gone through if I am the innocent party and the issue is clear cut I reasonably believe that I won't have as many short or long term emotional problems dealing with taking a life. But that's just me. And I could be wrong about what may happen.

My dad killed people up close and personal in WWII. I only know about it because he talked about it a grand total of one time. He said he did what he had to do and that was it. No nightmares... no regrets... no look backs.

As we all know... other vets in many wars dealt with the issue less well. To each his own.

 

[Benny]

Those are the words of a little man.

Agreed.

BTW, I wish your son the best of luck and I'll keep him in my prayers.

 

[mercop]

Thanks, the is well and a typical pain in the ass like most 12 year old boys.- George

 

[Hoosierdood]

Thanks for sharing your experience, George. NOBODY should ever be placed in a situation where they are forced to take another human life. Unfortunately, in the warped world that we live in, the fact is that it could happen to anyone. I carry every day, everywhere I go. I do this to protect myself and those I love. I pray that I never have to actually use my gun in self defense. I know that if/when I do, my life will change forever. I just talked to a WW2 vet this week who recounted the time he shot a fleeing German off his motorcycle (he was going to get reinforcements). He remembered it like it was yesterday, and said he still hates the fact that he had to do that.

Because of financial restraints, I can't take as many training classes as I would like, but I can say without a doubt that many of your threads here on INGO have made me seriously think about my mindset. Thanks George.

 

[down3green]

I have read numerous stories and have had many people personally tell me that when they were held up at gunpoint and "knew" they were about to die it pretty much destroyed their life for anywhere from several weeks to even years. Sleeplessness, fear of going outside, fear of strangers, a sense of hopelessness are just some of the symptoms that some people seem to exhibit "after the fact."

Yet I, who had a .44 magmum pressed against my belly by a junkie who had nothing to lose by shooting me, went out on a date that night afterwards with my girlfriend, slept like a baby afterwards, and never really dwelled on it at all. Ever. It happened, I survived, it's in the past.

Point is people react to different situations in different ways. There is no cookie cutter... no box that is labeled "single and only right way" to deal with extremely emotional and traumatic issues. I don't know how I would react if I had to take another person's life. But if I don't react the way that another person does that makes me neither better nor worse than him. It just means that I react differently.

Based upon other incidences in my life and experiences that I have gone through if I am the innocent party and the issue is clear cut I reasonably believe that I won't have as many short or long term emotional problems dealing with taking a life. But that's just me. And I could be wrong about what may happen.

My dad killed people up close and personal in WWII. I only know about it because he talked about it a grand total of one time. He said he did what he had to do and that was it. No nightmares... no regrets... no look backs.

As we all know... other vets in many wars dealt with the issue less well. To each his own.

.

Thanks for saying this - even though in the Vietnam "war" my crew's job was to kill, it wasn't up close and personal, but "Death from Above." However, it was what we did daily, and I have to say if I'm supposed to be full of regrets, I'm a failure.

On the other hand, I may have missed the point (which isn't totally out of the realm of possibility).


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[mercop]

They say the more intimate the killing the more issues. My problems have mostly been realizing how a complete stranger can do something to change your life forever. That and knowing that even though he was a complete POS his family loved him. I was there when his parents who seemed like good, normal people came to the PD to get his personal effects. They had no idea that I was the one that had killed their son.

If the guy was in front of me right now I would not recognize his face but I could describe everything else to a T.

Over the years I have tried to fill in the blanks of what I heard and did. When I see the shooting it does not run like a movie, but rather a slide show. I have been told that this is very common.- George

 

[cedartop]

George, thanks for sharing things that are hard but may help someone.

I think that Jack is right, and people can have very different reactions to deadly force situations for unkown reasons. The PD I used to work at, had quite a few OIS. One officer had to use a shotgun to take a young man's life early in his career, he was never the same afterords. We had numerous other officer's take a life, and not be affected much at all. My current boss has been in something on the order of 5 or 6 shootouts with no ill effect.

As I have posted somewhere here before, my grandfather was in heavy close combat in New Guinea during WWII, and like many others, never talked about it much. I have been fortunate enough to face the decision of having to take a life a couple of times, but managed to avoid it, I am glad that is how it worked out. I know I could have taken the shot, but in the end was glad I was not forced to.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Thanks for your insight. I think alot of us contemplate situations where we may be justified in using deadly force and then how to handle the legal/civil aftermath. But how can you possibly anticipate the emotional fallout? I pray I (nor the rest of us) never have to find out.