Where do rights come from?

[chipbennett]

Dammit, Janet, now that YOU agree with chip, I think I do, too.

Why do I fear the space-time continuum is now at risk?

 

[chipbennett]

Depends how you define rights and the source of rights. One source is rights granted by a legal authority, the boundaries of which are defined in law. Another source is natural rights, the boundaries of which is moral, granted by no one, but exists by the fact of the existence of oneself. For example, morally, my right to exist, isn't dependent on the whims of people. Morally, an individual has a right to life and liberty.

Laws cannot grant rights. Laws are derived from authority enumerated by the governed to the government. The only agency thus exists with the governed - i.e. with the people. The people, therefore, must have ultimate, and greater, authority than that which the people cede to the government. Thus, laws can only grant privileges. Rights must be inherent to the people themselves.

Natural rights - those rights inherent to the people - must come from a greater authority (i.e. an endowment from the Creator). To argue that natural rights exist by virtue of sentient beings staking a claim to them is fraught with peril. For example: what of those humans who do not have the physical or mental capacity to assert their rights?

 

[chipbennett]

Social contract.

Justice is like porn. You know what it is when you see it. You have a natural right to life and liberty, etcetera. You don't have a natural right to violate other people's rights. The upholding of that, I'd say is justice.

And herein is why capital punishment is not a hill on which I would choose to die. Loss of liberty through incarceration is a just act of a government that exists for the purpose of securing the natural rights of the people, among those who have chosen to exercise freedom of association to form a society. While I accept capital punishment for the most heinous of acts of evil, I would readily give it up if it led to a more consistent application of natural rights.

 

[NKBJ]

I don't know which side I am, but thanks to my customary baking with my daughters yesterday, we do have cookies. And cinnamon rolls.

Today I will do my part in making the world a better place.
I tucked in May Bell when she came and got me from the hobby room.
Chopped out the fence line corner growth around the mail box so the post lady doesn't need a safari land rover.
Sister-in-law is coming over for one inch thick sirloins, bake taters and salad with fresh from the toaster oven garlic romano-parmesan sour dough croutons.
The design is completed for the combination rifle racks / book cases.
Next is putting up the wall hooks in the garage.
I deserve a cinnamon roll dadburnit. Maybe will have a fresh cup of coffee and a cookie instead.

 

[nonobaddog]

Laws cannot grant rights. Laws are derived from authority enumerated by the governed to the government. The only agency thus exists with the governed - i.e. with the people. The people, therefore, must have ultimate, and greater, authority than that which the people cede to the government. Thus, laws can only grant privileges. Rights must be inherent to the people themselves.

Natural rights - those rights inherent to the people - must come from a greater authority (i.e. an endowment from the Creator). To argue that natural rights exist by virtue of sentient beings staking a claim to them is fraught with peril. For example: what of those humans who do not have the physical or mental capacity to assert their rights?

Sure, laws can grant rights. Rights are granted by the society. Government is just a formal structure of the society.

 

[Brad69]

Which one is the god of healthcare?

This guy that lives down the street explains that healthcare is a god given right and uses Luke 10:19 to tell me god wants universal healthcare.
I then asked him what about the abortive clause in the universal healthcare plan and what verse can I look up to support that item he left me standing by the mail box and doesn’t wave anymore?

 

[Jludo]

Which one is the god of healthcare?

This guy that lives down the street explains that healthcare is a god given right and uses Luke 10:19 to tell me god wants universal healthcare.
I then asked him what about the abortive clause in the universal healthcare plan and what verse can I look up to support that item he left me standing by the mail box and doesn’t wave anymore?

Ha God is just leaving hints he wants us to give everyone health insurance. Didn't pause to ask why an omnipotent God wouldn't just heal the people he wanted to get healthcare. Apparently he gets something out of watching the struggle.

 

[Jludo]

They seem to want to learn the hardest way possible... and ruin a great country in the process.

Like I said upthread, the 'gimmie kids' have yet to make a political decision for us. They could very well ruin the country but I don't think you can blame them yet.

 

[nonobaddog]

Like I said upthread, the 'gimmie kids' have yet to make a political decision for us. They could very well ruin the country but I don't think you can blame them yet.

Blame? I plainly said they seem to want to. There is no blame there.

 

[jamil]

Laws cannot grant rights. Laws are derived from authority enumerated by the governed to the government. The only agency thus exists with the governed - i.e. with the people. The people, therefore, must have ultimate, and greater, authority than that which the people cede to the government. Thus, laws can only grant privileges. Rights must be inherent to the people themselves.

Natural rights - those rights inherent to the people - must come from a greater authority (i.e. an endowment from the Creator). To argue that natural rights exist by virtue of sentient beings staking a claim to them is fraught with peril. For example: what of those humans who do not have the physical or mental capacity to assert their rights?

I didn't say natural rights are granted by a legal authority. Legal rights are granted by a legal authority. I have a right to drive on public roads because the state has granted me that right through my driver's license. You might say that's a privilege, not a right, but then you'd just be picking semantic nits.

Natural rights aren't granted. They exist through moral truths, and I suppose if you want to say the source of moral truths is God, you have every right to believe it is. But then that's derived from faith.

 

[2A_Tom]

Ha God is just leaving hints he wants us to give everyone health insurance. Didn't pause to ask why an omnipotent God wouldn't just heal the people he wanted to get healthcare. Apparently he gets something out of watching the struggle.

Actually it is the believer that benefits from the struggle. There is a saying you may have heard, "No pain, no gain."

A guy who had it worse than you or I once said,

Job 23:10 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall comeforth as gold.

ETA

Its certainty not a right but since not many people want to jump on the libertarian train we as a society have decided govt should take care of these extra things.

There a multitude of us here with libertarian leanings, the reason I do not call myself that is Libertarians.

 

[jamil]

I have always thought of you as the guy who was quick on the uptake.

Here is another one, Abortionists and the Pro Choice crowd.

The worshipers of Moleck, Crocodile cults, the list is really long.

Morals are in no way objective they are subject to the mind of the group.

The "Christians" in Salem.

The Romans throwing Christians to the lions.

You and I certainly have different ideas about where morals come from. Some are subjective. Some not so much. Subjective morals differ between groups and individuals. Objective morals are something more common to humans; something that is "true". So, for example, take the moral of "responsibility". There's a moral truth behind that which is objectively true, which most cultures have figured out. We could probably agree on that. But where we might start disagreeing, I think the moral truths we have today we have built through natural selection. Probably you might think they come from God.

 

[jamil]

And herein is why capital punishment is not a hill on which I would choose to die. Loss of liberty through incarceration is a just act of a government that exists for the purpose of securing the natural rights of the people, among those who have chosen to exercise freedom of association to form a society. While I accept capital punishment for the most heinous of acts of evil, I would readily give it up if it led to a more consistent application of natural rights.

 

[jamil]

Ha God is just leaving hints he wants us to give everyone health insurance. Didn't pause to ask why an omnipotent God wouldn't just heal the people he wanted to get healthcare. Apparently he gets something out of watching the struggle.

Matthew 25 is all about positive rights, don't you know.


Seriously though, some people conflate (used purposefully for Alpo's benefit) natural rights and human rights, the latter encompassing both positive and negative rights. So if you're a bat **** crazy progressive you might think it's immoral not to give everyone healthcare because "care" is the only moral foundation you have. You're not morally equipped to figure out that it's immoral to force people to care for other people.

 

[2A_Tom]

You and I certainly have different ideas about where morals come from. Some are subjective. Some not so much. Subjective morals differ between groups and individuals. Objective morals are something more common to humans; something that is "true". So, for example, take the moral of "responsibility". There's a moral truth behind that which is objectively true, which most cultures have figured out. We could probably agree on that. But where we might start disagreeing, I think the moral truths we have today we have built through natural selection. Probably you might think they come from God.

Yeah well that is blown out of the water by the right of kings. There was a time when this was ubiquitous and is still widely practiced.

Unless you include the responsibility to rule and reap the benefits of despotism. I would say that many elected officials in our country see this as their responsibility.

 

[2A_Tom]

Matthew 25 is all about positive rights, don't you know.


Seriously though, some people conflate (used purposefully for Alpo's benefit) natural rights and human rights, the latter encompassing both positive and negative rights. So if you're a bat **** crazy progressive you might think it's immoral not to give everyone healthcare because "care" is the only moral foundation you have. You're not morally equipped to figure out that it's immoral to force people to care for other people.

It is not their belief that it is their responsibility to care for others, but that you should care for others.

 

[Jludo]

There a multitude of us here with libertarian leanings, the reason I do not call myself that is Libertarians.

I thought that until this last election, now it appears more read team v blue team than any actual ideology bend.

 

[2A_Tom]

Are Libertarians opposed to border security?

Are they opposed to rolling back regulations?

Or is Libertarianism a cult of personality? Did you feel the Johnson?

The economy is doing pretty well, unemployment is down, Congress is gridlocked And all is well.

 

[Jludo]

Are Libertarians opposed to border security?

Are they opposed to rolling back regulations?

Or is Libertarianism a cult of personality? Did you feel the Johnson?

The economy is doing pretty well, unemployment is down, Congress is gridlocked And all is well.

Are you making a libertarian case for Trump? I think that'd deserve it's own thread but I don't agree Trumps done much to make libertarians happy, cutting some regulation I will grant you. Wars, military spending, tariffs, increasing deficit etc. Haven't been good, I think Trumps matching up with libertarian ideology is more a broken clock type scenario.

 

[2A_Tom]

You disagree with the President's Constitutional authority to set tariffs in order to pressure nations to conform to our will.

You oppose tariffs in order to fund the Federal Government. You prefer the income tax I suppose.

Tariffs only hurt US citizens like the tariff on Mexico.

OH! I forgot! Mexico and Guatemala have agreed to make refugees apply for asylum there and Mexico is helping stem the tide at our southern border.

I didn't say trump is a libertarian.

He is doing more to fix the US than any Dem or Rep has done in a long time.