When your J Frame isn't enough

[lovemachine]

It's an older article from 2010, but I thought it was a good read.

WARRIOR TALK NEWS - When Your J Frame Isn't Enough

 

[Spanky46151]

Lotta common sense & good advice there.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

For sure a good read - and the information presented should always be on the mind of those who carry a J-frame (whether it be a backup or as an only).

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The bad guys aren’t carrying .22’s, .25’s, or .32’s. The bad guys are carrying the best firearms they can buy or steal.

...which typically aren't very good. Are there scenarios were 5 shots isn't enough? Sure. How likely are they to occur? Not very. Even in the article he's playing what if. Jewelry store owner shoots one robber with 3 rounds, other guy flees. WHAT IF the other guy fought it out. Well, he didn't, and that's pretty typical. The bad guy isn't counting your rounds or thinking, hmmm, he's only got two left, I've got a good chance.

Would one more round make a difference in that scenario? If not, would a standard 6 shot revolver not be too few rounds as well? 8 rounds for a 1911? I don't think many folks here would argue that a S&W Model 60 or a 1911 aren't good defensive weapons. When is it "enough" bullets in the cylinder/magazine?

Let's take a look at this:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/criminals-and-the-guns-they-carry/

Combine those facts and you will see that 41 percent of the weapons we seize from criminals are completely non-functional!

Now include the four guns that weren’t fully loaded and the 17 with extremely limited function (no magazines, malfunctioned within the first three rounds, etc.) and take a look at the results. In total, 66 percent of the guns we took from criminals were unable to be fired or could be fired for fewer than three rounds before being empty or experiencing a malfunction!

Obviously more rounds is better. Unless you are swimming or on fire, you'll never regret having too much ammo, after all. Being realistic, though, our chances of ever being in an encounter where 5 shots isn't enough is probably in the range of PowerBall odds.

 

[BlueEagle]

Still, those extra rounds don't cost you anything to carry 'em. I agree with most of the article.

 

[indiucky]

Another guy with a shaved head extolling the virtues of the Glock...What a shock..

I have looked through three bins of police confiscated firearms in the past year and have countless times (over 20 years or so) looked through the police confiscated guns that Kiesler's used to take in from all over the country...Hollywood not withstanding the Raven, Lorcin, Jennings, (and some useless Smith J frames, Charters Arms revolvers etc...), a smattering of high points, and RG german made revolvers seem to be the predominant weapon of use by criminals...I am not saying that some criminals don't have better weapons. I am just saying these are MOSTLY what were found...Suicide weapons are another matter. Mostly Colt and Smith revolvers with heavy pitting on the outside of the barrels while otherwise in nearly unfired condition.

A carry gun should be the gun you will actually carry...For over 60 years the J frame has been a top choice in that role because it is one that most folks will actually carry..It is their choice to not shave their head and carry a wimpy 5 shot revolver and I think in most cases it is enough..The NRA statistics show that 9 times out of 10 the mere presence of a firearm (of any type) stops the confrontation right then...Criminals are like most of us in the sense that they have a job..Their job is stealing from people (at gun or knife point in many cases) and if they feel that they may be shot they know that they will not be able to go to work the next day robbing folks at gun or knife point....


All of this is offered IMHO and in no way do I think I am right...Lest my defense of the revolver as a viable self defense weapon be construed as "testy" or "religous in nature" please understand that it is only an opinion stated by one person based on two personal incidents and in no way should be taken as any disrespect over your choice of carry weapon or the number of rounds you feel comfortable having on your person in the event of a self defense situation.

I am not a warrior so this is not "warrior talk"...It's just "regular guy trying to get through life talk"...

 

[tyme2climb]

Everything BehindBlueI's said. There will always be an article out there suggesting I am undergunned or not carrying enough rounds-I carry the gun that fits me and that I am most confident with.

 

[Bosshoss]

Instead of how many rounds my magazine holds I prefer to rely on my ability.
But I'm not bald so what do I know.

 

[cedartop]

First, lets clear up a misunderstanding, the author of the article, Suarez Staff Instructor Jon Payne, is a friend of mine, and is not bald. The owner of our company, Gabe Suarez, is clean shaven. Not sure how this is relevant, you would think the fact that he has prevailed in multiple gunfights, or has trained with and taught for some of the biggest names in the industry, or was one of the pioneers in using Force on Force to test concepts such as dynamic movement, and the integration of hand, knife, and gun, or that he has 30+ some instructors all over the world pushing to refine and expand our knowlege of violent force encounters, would be far more relevant to his opinion on gunfighting than his hairdo (or lack thereof).

On to the J-frame. I like them, more from a standpoint of thinking they are cool than feeling that they are a great tool for the job. What that job is could have some bearing on this. I am longer longer training to defeat a single mugger or attacker. My goals are beyond that. I want to be prepared for multiple aggressors, such as a gang. I want to be ready for an active shooter scenario. I want to be ready for enemy's of our country should they attempt something in our streets as they have done elsewhere. Can the J frame prevail in the "average" encounter? Sure it can, is it the best tool for what I am preparing for? NO, and it isn't that hard to carry something that is far better suited.

The owner of the range I teach at most of the time and I argue about this a lot. He is a revolver only guy and takes it very personally that others don't agree with him. I don't understand that. Carry what you want understanding its strength's and more importantly its limitations. What someone carries doesn't bother me unless they try to say it is just as good as something it isn't, and if you hit what you aim at you only need five shots. Horses and wagons woked well back in the day, they still work, but unless you are Amish, you probably don't pick them as your daily transportation.

BTW, I cary a j frame and practice a lot with it. It is always a back up though.

 

[Fargo]

Good article and he makes a number of valid points. However, the one significant advantage of the j-frame IMO is that particularly in a pocket carry situation, it is far less likely to malf than a subcompact 9.

That is by no means to say that I wouldn't be comfortable with the reliability of the g26 because I am. However, IME a 442 is going to have far less malfunctions than any subcompact auto; particularly when you are talking about carrying it in a pocket which both soaks up lubrication and introduces great quantities of lint and other debris.

Best,

Joe

 

[cedartop]

Good article and he makes a number of valid points. However, the one significant advantage of the j-frame IMO is that particularly in a pocket carry situation, it is far less likely to malf than a subcompact 9.

That is by no means to say that I wouldn't be comfortable with the reliability of the g26 because I am. However, IME a 442 is going to have far less malfunctions than any subcompact auto; particularly when you are talking about carrying it in a pocket which both soaks up lubrication and introduces great quantities of lint and other debris.

Best,

Joe

Agreed, but if I pocket carry, which isn't often, I use a holster whichever way you go. As some of the others have said, a G26 is too big for my pockets.

 

[bwframe]

...which typically aren't very good. Are there scenarios were 5 shots isn't enough? Sure. How likely are they to occur? Not very. Even in the article he's playing what if. Jewelry store owner shoots one robber with 3 rounds, other guy flees. WHAT IF the other guy fought it out. Well, he didn't, and that's pretty typical. The bad guy isn't counting your rounds or thinking, hmmm, he's only got two left, I've got a good chance.

Would one more round make a difference in that scenario? If not, would a standard 6 shot revolver not be too few rounds as well? 8 rounds for a 1911? I don't think many folks here would argue that a S&W Model 60 or a 1911 aren't good defensive weapons. When is it "enough" bullets in the cylinder/magazine?

Let's take a look at this:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/criminals-and-the-guns-they-carry/



Obviously more rounds is better. Unless you are swimming or on fire, you'll never regret having too much ammo, after all. Being realistic, though, our chances of ever being in an encounter where 5 shots isn't enough is probably in the range of PowerBall odds.

Going on stats, odds, probability and "being realistic," why waist the effort to carry at all. With a bit of situational awareness the chances of needing a firearm are darn near nil, correct?

 

[g00n24]

Another guy with a shaved head extolling the virtues of the Glock...What a shock..

I have looked through three bins of police confiscated firearms in the past year and have countless times (over 20 years or so) looked through the police confiscated guns that Kiesler's used to take in from all over the country...Hollywood not withstanding the Raven, Lorcin, Jennings, (and some useless Smith J frames, Charters Arms revolvers etc...), a smattering of high points, and RG german made revolvers seem to be the predominant weapon of use by criminals...I am not saying that some criminals don't have better weapons. I am just saying these are MOSTLY what were found...Suicide weapons are another matter. Mostly Colt and Smith revolvers with heavy pitting on the outside of the barrels while otherwise in nearly unfired condition.

A carry gun should be the gun you will actually carry...For over 60 years the J frame has been a top choice in that role because it is one that most folks will actually carry..It is their choice to not shave their head and carry a wimpy 5 shot revolver and I think in most cases it is enough..The NRA statistics show that 9 times out of 10 the mere presence of a firearm (of any type) stops the confrontation right then...Criminals are like most of us in the sense that they have a job..Their job is stealing from people (at gun or knife point in many cases) and if they feel that they may be shot they know that they will not be able to go to work the next day robbing folks at gun or knife point....
...

I really don't like that argument and I hear it all the time. If you are going to carry a gun then carry one that will give you the best chance to get the job done. I'm not talking about packing around a Deagle every day, but if someone won't carry a gun just because they can't fit it in their pocket then they are not serious about carrying a firearm.
I understand throwing a pistol in your pocket when you are just running down the street to get milk, I do it with my kahr cm9. But If I am going to be out anywhere more then a few minutes I will holster up.

You also have to think about WHY you are carrying a firearm. Are you just planning on defending yourself against one or two muggers in an alley somewhere. Or do you want to have more firepower to stop a threat such as an active shooter or terrorist attack at a mall (at least a better chance of doing so)...something like that...I get that a j-frame, or .380 etc, is probably enough to stop 98% of the lethal threats you have a chance of encountering. However, a modern semi-auto with 10+ rds of a self defense caliber with reloads will give you a much better chance against an active shooter/multiple attacker scenario.

 

[9mmfan]

My biggest problem with carrying a gun during the week is weight. I wear scrubs during the week. If I run into a store after work, I can slip my 642 in a lightweight Uncle Mikes and clip it inside my scrubs pants on the strong side. Doing that with a G26 would be near impossible-that is if I wanted to keep my pants on.

 

[g00n24]

My biggest problem with carrying a gun during the week is weight. I wear scrubs during the week. If I run into a store after work, I can slip my 642 in a lightweight Uncle Mikes and clip it inside my scrubs pants on the strong side. Doing that with a G26 would be near impossible-that is if I wanted to keep my pants on.

Look into getting a belly band for those scrubs. No pockets needed. If you can't carry at work for whatever reason you can slip even a gun larger than a baby glock in the belly band and a spare mag very easily. I suggest wearing the band so the gun is in the appendix position and right at the waist line. Not actually over your belly. Your scrubs will conceal it no problem there. I can attest to that.

 

[9mmfan]

Look into getting a belly band for those scrubs. No pockets needed. If you can't carry at work for whatever reason you can slip even a gun larger than a baby glock in the belly band and a spare mag very easily. I suggest wearing the band so the gun is in the appendix position and right at the waist line. Not actually over your belly. Your scrubs will conceal it no problem there. I can attest to that.

I think my 'belly' might interfere with the belly band!

 

[HavokCycle]

snubbies are only good for one thing - muggings. can ANYone really pattern 5 shots in center mass at more than 10 yards? i really dont think i can, but admittedly ive not tried.

while i agree with the premise of the article, in the real world we have to think of a lot more things. am i on a date, where a full frame gun would be unseemly, or in some other situation where a full-size or even compact would be bulky, noticeable, etc.

hell, if you wanted to cover all bases, including armed robbers at 100yards holding up a store with body armor, why not just pack an M14?

 

[cedartop]

snubbies are only good for one thing - muggings. can ANYone really pattern 5 shots in center mass at more than 10 yards? i really dont think i can, but admittedly ive not tried.

It can be done fairly easily, just takes some practice. I have hit somewhat consistently at 100 yrds with a Smith airweight under the expert tutelage of Dennis Reichard.

while i agree with the premise of the article, in the real world we have to think of a lot more things. am i on a date, where a full frame gun would be unseemly, or in some other situation where a full-size or even compact would be bulky, noticeable, etc.

Well I'm married, so that is not an issue.

hell, if you wanted to cover all bases, including armed robbers at 100yards holding up a store with body armor, why not just pack an M14?

I can do that with my Glock, but like to keep the Vepr .308 close, just in case.

 

[lovemachine]

My wife and I still go on a lot of dates. (Yes, with each other).
And while on our dates, my carrying a Glock 26 has NEVER gotten in the way of any activities we do on our dates.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

snubbies are only good for one thing - muggings. can ANYone really pattern 5 shots in center mass at more than 10 yards? i really dont think i can, but admittedly ive not tried.

I can, and so can anyone else who qualifies with one as a backup/off duty with IMPD since we have to shoot from the 15 yard line with it. Once you get used to the short sight radius and got a little practice in I think you'd be surprised how well you can shoot one.

I will say it requires more practice to stay on top of, though. If I go too long without getting some dry fires in and the occasional range time my groups open up a lot faster than if I neglect my Glock or Sig for the same amount of time.