What's in your home defense shotgun?

[melensdad]

Who said that I will use my shotgun a few feet away from the BG?
I dont know at what distance I will have to engage a potential threat, it could be a few feet inside the house, it could be 30 yards in the backyard.

You will have a very difficult time defending yourself in court if you are claiming self defense at 30 yards unless the bad guy has you pinned down under a hail of gunfire.

Some people got shot at close range with birdshot in the face, and survived, so yes it's important what load you use even at very short range.

This is one of the very few statements that you've made that I generally agree with. Birdshot is known to be ineffective, especially body shots, at stopping the intruder. Birdshot is known to fail when encountering winter clothes, leather coats, etc.

Actually a .223 doesn't have that much over-penetration since the bullet starts to spin once it hits the first obstacle.

While this is true at combat ranges where it is often tested, I'm not going to really favor a FMJ 223 at 6 to 12 feet, where most self-defense shootings occur. While I have no problem with the 223 as a self-defense round, and I will even advocate it, it is with a glorified varmint round like the Hornady TAP that will be virtually guaranteed to come apart inside the body cavity of the bad guy.

And like I said earlier, over-penetration is not an issue since I wont be shooting towards people I dont want to shoot anyway.

Easy to say today. Perhaps you don't have a family right now. Someday you may. Many are not the same as you.

It strikes me that when we give advice we should give good advice for all, not for very narrow and limited siutations.

 

[Stubz]

Have a Moss 500 cruiser, replaced pistol grip with normal stock, added 120lum LED light with pig tail. Loaded with a RIO 9plt 00buck in the tube, followed by a Fed #4buck, followed by 4 Rem 1oz Sluggers. With bedrooms situated at the end of a short hall, I want the 00 punch first if they're close, the pattern of #4 if they're not and slugs after in case they're behind said hall wall. Over Pen IS an issue, but if my slug goes through a wall, couch (presumably the BG), wall, stone, and still covers the ~500yrds to the neighbors... wow.

I know what I just posted I loaded isn't uniform, but why do so many seem to "candy-cane", as it was put, their tubes? A slug will do what 00 can, but not necc can 00 do what a slug can. I'd rather not *think* I've got a slug and take the shot, only to not get the impact on the target I need.

 

[melensdad]

Have a Moss 500 cruiser, replaced pistol grip with normal stock, added 120lum LED light with pig tail. Loaded with a RIO 9plt 00buck in the tube, followed by a Fed #4buck, followed by 4 Rem 1oz Sluggers. With bedrooms situated at the end of a short hall, I want the 00 punch first if they're close, the pattern of #4 if they're not and slugs after in case they're behind said hall wall. . .

You do realize that at roughly 15' (distance of a typical hallway) there will be almost no appreciable "spread" from any shotgun load??? With either 00 Buck or #4 Buck you are looking at a "fist size" of spread. Both should be nearly identical and neither should "spread" more than a few inches in diameter at that range.

Now defending yourself in a self defense shooting when you are shooting at a bad guy that is in a different room at the far end of a hallway where you can't see him . . . seems to me that is a litigators dream case that might end you in jail wiff a cell mate named Big Bubba.

 

[Broom_jm]

What melensdad points out above is also relevant when discussing the #2, #4 and to a lesser extent, #6 waterfowl/game loads commonly used for sporting purposes. At 15' these all make a rather small pattern, but leave a large HOLE in stuff. I'm starting to think a lot of the folks posting on this thread have done very little hunting with a shotgun?

When you kick up a pheasant at your feet, there is a reason you do not shoot it until it has gotten away from you a bit.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

What melensdad points out above is also relevant when discussing the #2, #4 and to a lesser extent, #6 waterfowl/game loads commonly used for sporting purposes. At 15' these all make a rather small pattern, but leave a large HOLE in stuff. I'm starting to think a lot of the folks posting on this thread have done very little hunting with a shotgun?

When you kick up a pheasant at your feet, there is a reason you do not shoot it until it has gotten away from you a bit.

That is a little bird, not a 180# meth addict or 3 guys intent on kidnapping and raping your daughter.

And I have shot LOTS of things with all types of birdshot.

 

[ND Fan]

Remington 870 Express Mag. 20" barrel with extender tube,staggered 00 buck /slug,with 6 more in the side saddle...

 

[melensdad]

What melensdad points out above is also relevant when discussing the #2, #4 and to a lesser extent, #6 waterfowl/game loads commonly used for sporting purposes. At 15' these all make a rather small pattern, but leave a large HOLE in stuff. I'm starting to think a lot of the folks posting on this thread have done very little hunting with a shotgun?

When you kick up a pheasant at your feet, there is a reason you do not shoot it until it has gotten away from you a bit.

While the pattern does NOT open up, as you have observed, the fact is that the tiny light pellets do not create a devastating wound on a HUMAN when using BIRDSHOT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, for MOST home defense situations, 00 BUCK will over penetrate.

There is a middle ground, one that firearm experts seem to favor, and that is #3 or #4 BUCKSHOT. Instead of 9 33 caliber balls, the payload uses roughly 25 caliber balls. They have somewhat less kenetic energy than 00 BUCK, but they still have enough to go through a man at home defense distances and yet will typically NOT go through a couple additional walls.

 

[v1g1lant3]

#6 followed by 3 00 buck i figure my first shot might be off it will be dark and god knows where they are at when my bedroom door opens up

 

[Sylvain]

#6 followed by 3 00 buck i figure my first shot might be off it will be dark and god knows where they are at when my bedroom door opens up

You mean you dont have a light on your gun and shoot randomly in the dark?

 

[jeremy]

You mean you dont have a light on your gun and shoot randomly in the dark?

Huh....

I thought all firearms had a built in flashlight...

 

[v1g1lant3]

no light yet and i havent had to take it out at night maybe that will be my next purchase

did have to take it out at 10:30 am thank god i was home i figure thats when they wanna get you. when your working. i also lived in chicago at the time higher crime rates and all

 

[Stubz]

You do realize that at roughly 15' (distance of a typical hallway) there will be almost no appreciable "spread" from any shotgun load??? With either 00 Buck or #4 Buck you are looking at a "fist size" of spread. Both should be nearly identical and neither should "spread" more than a few inches in diameter at that range.

Now defending yourself in a self defense shooting when you are shooting at a bad guy that is in a different room at the far end of a hallway where you can't see him . . . seems to me that is a litigators dream case that might end you in jail wiff a cell mate named Big Bubba.

I did leave several details out, hallway ends 1/2 through house, the "spread" was thinking they would be further from that (kitchen entry roughly 30' - using your rough 15' measure). As for shooting into another room, Uh huh because no one's EVER hugged a wall for cover or stuck an arm around a corner and fired blindly

Not saying your wrong but gotta cover every contingency you can, right?

 

[melensdad]

I did leave several details out, hallway ends 1/2 through house, the "spread" was thinking they would be further from that (kitchen entry roughly 30' - using your rough 15' measure). As for shooting into another room, Uh huh because no one's EVER hugged a wall for cover or stuck an arm around a corner and fired blindly

Not saying your wrong but gotta cover every contingency you can, right?

Don't use my "rough 15' measure" as your standard, pull out a tape measure. In most homes that longest shots we will take are roughly 15'. Assume you are in a 20' room (larger than most rooms), assume your back is to the wall and you have a roughly 3' long shotgun. That puts your muzzle out 4 feet from the wall because your body is roughly a foot thick. Now few of use walk with our backs directly against the wall, there tends to be furniture in the way. But presume you are pressed to the wall, that gives you a 16' shot to the opposite wall, or 15' to his chest if his back is pressed hard against the opposite wall. If the bad guy is anywhere in that room and his back is not against the wall, then you are probably looking at shorter shot. So again, you are probably looking at a shot that is going to realistically be 6 to 12 feet, which is the typical range of a self defense shooting.

Most people dramatically over estimate lengths in their home. By your statement, the interior of your house is 60' across (you said your 30' long hallway ends 1/2 way through the house). I am not going to argue with you, perhaps you do own a very large home, or a long narrow ranch home. But very few homes are 60' across (excluding the garage) and I'd suggest you take measurements.

When I got married I lived in a 1340 square foot home, it was roughly square shaped with modest size rooms, I doubt I could have taken a 15' shot anywhere inside that home. I now live in a fairly large home, its an open concept type design, so I have long open shots in this home that can be up to 45 feet if I shoot from one room, though a second room, into a third (which is possible because of the open concept floor plan) but it might be difficult to claim "self-defense" in such a shooting situation.

As for a shootout inside your home with a bad guy around the corner, sticking his arm out and shooting. Its certainly possible that you have the guy pinned down and that is his only option. He may fire blindly. I've seen that in the movies. Probably happened a few times in real life.

My advice to anyone with a gun remains the same. Walk your rooms at night, with a flashlight mounted to your UNLOADED gun (tape a flashlight to the muzzle for this simulation). Have another family member handy with a tape measure. From your bedroom, or wherever you keep your gun, go and gather up your family and move to a safe place. During the process you will sweep some rooms, halls, stairs, etc. Measure the distances from the muzzle to the spot where the flashlight lands (subtract 4' from your distance) and that will likely be the LONGEST distances of your shots.

You will learn several things. First you will learn where you are vulnerable inside your home. You will learn where you only have cover and where you have real barrier (bullets probably won't go through a refrigerator). You will also learn where your family (children/pets) may be in harms way by your own gun.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Melensdad, pretty much all bets are off if they are in your home. You no longer have to prove much of anything. Don't want to derail it too much but I've seen you post that a few times now.

If there is an intruder IN your home, that isn't running for the door at breakneck speed I imagine it would be a good shoot considering you can use deadly force to PREVENT them from forcibly entering in the first place.

 

[jeremy]

I cannot think of any rounds off the top of my head (that one would find in a home defense weapon) that will not blow right through a refrigerator....

 

[Sylvain]

I cannot think of any rounds off the top of my head (that one would find in a home defense weapon) that will not blow right through a refrigerator....

You just cant find a magic round that will stop any threat and yet not go thru any wall in your house.
If it has enough power to stop a threat then it has enough power to go thru a couple of walls and possibly hurt or kill someone else in your home.
That's true for any shotgun round (from birdshot to slugs).

I dont think anyone should rely on a particular type of ammo to make sure that they dont injure or kill friendly people inside the house due to over-penetration.
For me the only way to make sure that im not going to shoot someone I dont want to shoot is to be aware of the location of those friendly people in my house.
It means knowing where everybody is in your home in relationship to where you are and your different lines of fire.
If your family is next to you then you know they're not down range and it doesn't matter if you shoot thru the entire house.
Of course you also have to worry about neighbors, how close they are, what type of cover you have between you and them and all those things.
If something happens at night, and you dont have time to gather your kids who live in another room, you will have to know where are the "non shoot" walls in your house.
You're not going to shoot anyone with a shotgun (or any other gun) if your kid is sleeping behind the wall that is behind the BG.
If a threat is in front of one of those walls you might want to get a different angle of fire or use other tools than your gun.
You also have the possibility to remove those "non shoot" walls by strategically placing obstacles that will stop those rounds from being thru the wall (bookshelves places on each side of the wall, ballistic panels, concrete wall, fireplace etc).

 

[melensdad]

Melensdad, pretty much all bets are off if they are in your home. You no longer have to prove much of anything. Don't want to derail it too much but I've seen you post that a few times now.

If there is an intruder IN your home, that isn't running for the door at breakneck speed I imagine it would be a good shoot considering you can use deadly force to PREVENT them from forcibly entering in the first place.

While I totally agree with you that if someone is inside your home they are PROBABLY fair game. As you said, if they are heading OUT then you can't shoot. Well if they are behind a wall and you are shooting at them through the wall then please explain to me how you know they are not running for the opposing window???

I cannot think of any rounds off the top of my head (that one would find in a home defense weapon) that will not blow right through a refrigerator....

Most refrigerators are full of stuff and are parked next to a wall. Many self defense rounds will be deflected by a full refrigerator, stopped by a full freezer or otherwise made non-lethal.

But yes, set a refrigerator on a target range and you can put a bullet hole through it. Fill it and shoot it through a wall and you have a much better chance of defeating or deflecting the bullet before it gets to you.

 

[jeremy]

Most refrigerators are full of stuff and are parked next to a wall. Many self defense rounds will be deflected by a full refrigerator, stopped by a full freezer or otherwise made non-lethal.

But yes, set a refrigerator on a target range and you can put a bullet hole through it. Fill it and shoot it through a wall and you have a much better chance of defeating or deflecting the bullet before it gets to you.

I've had the chance to shoot refrigerators that were full of various goods, the frozen foods are the only contents that provided any type of defeating or deflection...
Not to mention, there is not refrigerator/freezer that is completely full without voids...

My conclusions...
Refrigerators are only concealment. Upright freezers are only concealment. Chest freezers might be used for cover, but should still only be considered concealment...