What was wrong with the ISP G21's?

[Kirk Freeman]

Glock mags were never intended to drop free.

I'm curious why that is. What advantage is there to a mag that requires two hands to remove?

So the soldaten don't drop them into the muck.

 

[Thegeek]

I'm confused.... is that supposed to support the blind decision to go with the Sig, or to work through the teething issues on the Glock? By what I'm assuming is your attempt to defend the decision to go with the Sig, the new Remington R51 should be an outstanding firearm. Regardless of make or model, nearly everyone here will tell you to never carry a new firearm until you've PROVEN it's reliability at the range.

The most believable scenario here is that the person in charge of choosing the weapon is a just a Sig fanboy.

 

[db1959]

I'm confused.... is that supposed to support the blind decision to go with the Sig, or to work through the teething issues on the Glock? By what I'm assuming is your attempt to defend the decision to go with the Sig, the new Remington R51 should be an outstanding firearm. Regardless of make or model, nearly everyone here will tell you to never carry a new firearm until you've PROVEN it's reliability at the range.

The most believable scenario here is that the person in charge of choosing the weapon is a just a Sig fanboy.

 

[rolodetective]

Corruption, not conspiracy. Do you have any other logical explanation for choosing an unproven model as a police issue weapon?

I do.....but it's long and correct.
You've claimed one thing that is a total fabrication (stainless base plates) and seemed primed for a fight with your conspiracy/corruption/sig fan boy theories. Your mind is made up already.
Best for both of us all around to not get into a pissing match that doesn't really matter.

 

[SubUrbanCamo317]

I do.....but it's long and correct.
You've claimed one thing that is a total fabrication (stainless base plates) and seemed primed for a fight with your conspiracy/corruption/sig fan boy theories. Your mind is made up already.
Best for both of us all around to not get into a pissing match that doesn't really matter.

+1, I say go ahead and lay it out, this forum is for discussion of such topics. Please show the young padawan the errors of his ways.

 

[SubUrbanCamo317]

I'm confused.... is that supposed to support the blind decision to go with the Sig, or to work through the teething issues on the Glock? By what I'm assuming is your attempt to defend the decision to go with the Sig, the new Remington R51 should be an outstanding firearm. Regardless of make or model, nearly everyone here will tell you to never carry a new firearm until you've PROVEN it's reliability at the range.

The most believable scenario here is that the person in charge of choosing the weapon is a just a Sig fanboy.

Just fyi, Glocks have had teething issues for the past 10 or so years. Hence why ISP has changed from caliber to caliber on the Glock platform. They might have just decided to go with a different platform! Who knows? I know I sure dont. But if I were an ISP officer and had a Glock that had a bunch of teething issues I would welcome the switch. BTW, Have you ever shot a Sig? or are you a Glock fanboy? As far as being a blind decision, you have no grounds to argue that. I personally have no preference to brands or calibers. As long as it shoots straight and goes bang every time I pull the trigger I could care less if its a Glock, a Sig, a Ruger, a S&W, or for god sakes a Beretta! (pun intended)

 

[Thegeek]

I like what works and what feels good to me. One of the reasons I love my Ruger P95. It just doesn't work well as EDC. Love the way the Smith and Wesson shoots, hate the way it feels in my hand. The G19 feels good, shoots well, and is easy to maintain. Not to mention the holster market for lefties is very good. I didn't get the G19 because of what it offered, I got it because it best filled the intended purpose. I've shot the ISP's Gen3 G17, and the IMPD G22. I've also shot numerous Sigs, Taurus, Barettas, etc. Each have their pros and cons.

I have no problem with ISP switching weapons. However, when they choose a model that's still in pre-production, you have to question the reason for the choice. At the time of selection, the Sig had zero time in circulation. Other Sig models had, but that proves nothing (see Remington R51). It's not like they didn't have many other time tested pistol models to select from. I really don't know if this Sig model is questionable, but the decision to use it most certainly is. When my buddy get's his, I'll have an opportunity to shoot quite a few rounds through it.

I know of very few issues ISP had with the Glocks. Nothing was wrong with the G17s once they got the captive recoil springs. They could have maintained those for a long time. But, they had to switch to the 45. Most of the issues were inconsequential and easily dealt with. Other than what's been discussed here, what issues do you know of with the Glocks? I'd be very interested to know so I can keep an eye out for those issues on my own.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Corruption, not conspiracy. Do you have any other logical explanation for choosing an unproven model as a police issue weapon?

Same reason Glocks were adopted when they were the new kid on the block and folks believed polymer guns would explode or biodegrade after a few years. Glock's formula of subsidized purchase price + generous buyout of existing weapons + free accessories (spare mags, leather, training pistols, etc.) = police weapons contract was so successful that other manufacturers now copy it.

The P227 is much closer to existing proven platforms than Glock was to anything that existed when it gained widespread acceptance through the above.

 

[rolodetective]

Same reason Glocks were adopted when they were the new kid on the block and folks believed polymer guns would explode or biodegrade after a few years. Glock's formula of subsidized purchase price + generous buyout of existing weapons + free accessories (spare mags, leather, training pistols, etc.) = police weapons contract was so successful that other manufacturers now copy it.

The P227 is much closer to existing proven platforms than Glock was to anything that existed when it gained widespread acceptance through the above.

Well said!

ISP's move to the Sig brand had much to do with after sale customer service. Glock suggested, no, insisted, that all the problems ISP shooters were having with their weapons were the fault of the shooter. They accused shooters of "limp wristing" the gun, manipulating the weapon to force malfunctions and flat out became hostile/aggressive during the process.

How does the officer then feel comfortable carrying his/her combat weapon? Teething pains are one thing, but the arrogant attitude Glock presented in responding to the Agencies concern was overwhelmingly the reason for the switch to a new weapon system.

The 227 is heavily based on the 220 and 226. Both long tested and proven to work. For the record the weapon system that rose to the top during testing was the FN. The 227 was not available for testing. Concerns arose of the size and holster selection for the FN so after feedback from many sources and the fact that the 227 was now available for advance testing, the process was "redone" to include the new model. It finished head and shoulders ahead of the FN taking ALL demanded and required criteria into account.

There is much much more to a product you buy than the product itself. A combat weapon must work without afterthought or second guessing. While the 227 is a new model....I would offer that it's really only new in name only. It's effectively the same as it's previous long proven model but only larger. Larger in dimensions that are really quite negligible.

Think of a well known, proven car manufacturer taking a hugely popular, high performing, well reviewed model and adding four doors to it. The underlying design, engineering and parts list is largely the same. Long winded and not as concise as I wanted, but it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet. :-)

 

[djhuckle]

If you hurry you can get one today before the sales ends.

Midwest Gun Exchange Weekly Email Specials

Looks like Bradis got sum too! And cheaper.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/bradis-guns/340498-new-arrivals-w-e-4-5-14-a.html

 

[TLHelmer]

Well said!

ISP's move to the Sig brand had much to do with after sale customer service. Glock suggested, no, insisted, that all the problems ISP shooters were having with their weapons were the fault of the shooter. They accused shooters of "limp wristing" the gun, manipulating the weapon to force malfunctions and flat out became hostile/aggressive during the process.

How does the officer then feel comfortable carrying his/her combat weapon? Teething pains are one thing, but the arrogant attitude Glock presented in responding to the Agencies concern was overwhelmingly the reason for the switch to a new weapon system.

The 227 is heavily based on the 220 and 226. Both long tested and proven to work. For the record the weapon system that rose to the top during testing was the FN. The 227 was not available for testing. Concerns arose of the size and holster selection for the FN so after feedback from many sources and the fact that the 227 was now available for advance testing, the process was "redone" to include the new model. It finished head and shoulders ahead of the FN taking ALL demanded and required criteria into account.

There is much much more to a product you buy than the product itself. A combat weapon must work without afterthought or second guessing. While the 227 is a new model....I would offer that it's really only new in name only. It's effectively the same as it's previous long proven model but only larger. Larger in dimensions that are really quite negligible.

Think of a well known, proven car manufacturer taking a hugely popular, high performing, well reviewed model and adding four doors to it. The underlying design, engineering and parts list is largely the same. Long winded and not as concise as I wanted, but it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet. :-)

Well said!

 

[SubUrbanCamo317]

Other than what's been discussed here, what issues do you know of with the Glocks? I'd be very interested to know so I can keep an eye out for those issues on my own.

Besides the recoil spring issue that you mentioned, I know of a few. The older gen 2 & 3 G17's were having issues with the mags not feeding correctly at random times and gen 4's were having issues with the ejector not funtioning properly (throwing brass in the shooters face), the G22's were having feeding issues while there was a weapon light attached, and some of the 21's were having issues with mags dropping free, making one hand reloads very difficult. Other than that I'm unaware of other issues. I was told of the 17 issues by a ISP officer and on youtube, an IMPD officer told me of the 22 issue, and I learned of the 21 issue in this thread.

 

[Thegeek]

Feeding issues when a light is attached? That's about the strangest thing I've heard. If I had the time and money, I'd research that one just for the sake of curiosity!

I have to say, my Gen 4 19 is pretty inconsistent on where it throws the brass. I don't mind too much, but I could see that bothering some. Been looking for another tinkering project, I might look into that. I've read that there is a different ejector/trigger housing (#336 vs #30274) that easily corrects the issue. My G19 was manufactured later, and has the spring upgrade, but I never checked the ejector.

I might be dreaming, but I think I recall hearing somewhere that there was a known quality issue in the manufacturing of the magazines. I wish I could remember where I heard/read that. The solution was to just take a couple measurements and if identified, you just sent it to Glock and they replaced it. It's one of those things that is so clear in your mind, but you can't find a shred of proof.... wish I could remember....

As for the G21 mags, I think it's a pretty petty issue because the problem is so easy to fix. I know a trooper who had that issue and he said he fixed his in less than 10 minutes.


I think it's pretty unfair to say the Glock has "teething issues" without recognizing that all guns do. Even guns of the same model and generation can behave differently. These things are man-made, so like anything else they're going to have issues. Someone gave the example of car manufacturers and how the designs are proven. How long has the GM 2200 4-cyl been around? Some years are good, others are crap. If you do a quick google search of "Sig P226 problems" you'll find a week's worth of reading on it's issues. The difference is frequency and severity of the failures. Pretty hard to get that metric on a brand new model. Just makes the decision questionable. Just for the record, it's part of my job to research and investigate purchases for the company before they're made. I have this argument on nearly a daily basis, and it's experience talking that "latest and greatest" never refer to the same device.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Feeding issues when a light is attached? That's about the strangest thing I've heard. If I had the time and money, I'd research that one just for the sake of curiosity!

Mine was one of the 22's that wouldn't run right with a light attached. Without a light, its 100%. With a light, it fails to go back into battery about 1/40 times. I don't know why, but would suspect it has something to do with the frame being more rigid with something on the rail.

Glock originally said it was our fault, much like with ISP. When it was pointed out that the same shooter with the same gun either had problems or didn't have problems based solely on the presence of the light, they said it was a magazine problem. They replaced all of our magazines for ones with stiffer springs. This had no affect on the malfunction. I don't know the gory details, but apparently the department threatened to go to another pistol, M&P probably, and Glock decided they'd rather we stick with them and gave us a good deal on Gen 4s.

I think it's pretty unfair to say the Glock has "teething issues" without recognizing that all guns do.

I think its pretty ironic that someone who tossed "corruption" around so easily with no basis is going to whine that its "unfair" to point out the problems Glocks have had.

 

[Thegeek]

I would suspect the problem with the G22 had more to do with the additional mass causing flex in the frame, or the clamping force of the accessory warping the frame.

I was stating that pointing out the flaws of one product while pretending the problems with another doesn't exist is a pretty ignorant thing to do.

 

[88E30M50]

I would suspect the problem with the G22 had more to do with the additional mass causing flex in the frame, or the clamping force of the accessory warping the frame.

I was stating that pointing out the flaws of one product while pretending the problems with another doesn't exist is a pretty ignorant thing to do.

What flaws were there that were being ignored? From what I've read, the P227 passed all ISP testing with flying colors.

 

[Thegeek]

And where did you read that?

 

[rolodetective]

What flaws were there that were being ignored? From what I've read, the P227 passed all ISP testing with flying colors.

And where did you read that?




Here! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The P227 passed all ISP testing with flying colors.








And pretty much here>>>>>>>>>>>>The 227 is heavily based on the 220 and 226. Both long tested and proven to work. For the record the weapon system that rose to the top during testing was the FN. The 227 was not available for testing. Concerns arose of the size and holster selection for the FN so after feedback from many sources and the fact that the 227 was now available for advance testing, the process was "redone" to include the new model. It finished head and shoulders ahead of the FN taking ALL demanded and required criteria into account.

There is much much more to a product you buy than the product itself. A combat weapon must work without afterthought or second guessing. While the 227 is a new model....I would offer that it's really only new in name only. It's effectively the same as it's previous long proven model but only larger. Larger in dimensions that are really quite negligible.


Think of a well known, proven car manufacturer taking a hugely popular, high performing, well reviewed model and adding four doors to it. The underlying design, engineering and parts list is largely the same. Long winded and not as concise as I wanted, but it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet. :-)

 

[linc_man]

I didn't hear flying colors, but I did hear the P227 won hands down. Straight from one of the horses mouth who tested the weapons with many thousands of rounds. He didn't say anything about the mag troubles or brass in the face on the glock, but he had more of a feeding problem.

 

[phylodog]

I don't know the gory details, but apparently the department threatened to go to another pistol, M&P probably, and Glock decided they'd rather we stick with them and gave us a good deal on Gen 4s.

You've been misinformed. There was no threat made to Glock about switching manufacturers and the troubleshooting process was not a confrontational one. The only thing which could have been interpreated as a threat was my purchase of a S&W M&P to test alongside the Gen 4 pistols. We were working with both Glock and the ammunition manufacturer to determine what was causing the issue. Glock had a new platform they wanted to get into service and made a good offer to replace our Gen 3 pistols with the new Gen 4. They sent us four Gen 4 pistols to test and after putting almost 8500 rounds through them using 8 varieties of ammunition we ended up with a malfunction rate of 1.78% overall and malfunction rates of 0% with our duty ammunition and .5% with our training ammunition. The test was run with and without lights (both the Streamlight TLR-1 and Surefire X200/300), both hands on the gun with the strong hand as the primary, both hands on the gun with the support hand as the primary, strong hand only on the gun, support hand only on the gun and intentionally limp wristing the pistol using both strong and support hand only.