What Moves Do You Really Use in H2H?

[Tinman]

Sorry, I think I’ve hijacked this thread and headed a little too the right of what was intended.

Nice video Fen, I’d be interested to hear the premise behind some of his drills as well the set-up. Some issues I see, his opponents are providing no real resistance. When he brushes them off, they just change directions and walk away allowing him to address the next threat. All of his scenarios seem to start at arms length or better, and with all opponents arrayed in front of him. On several of the iterations, he engaged one opponent with some type of chain striking sequence while the other opponents made no attempt to restrain or continue the fight. I would rather see a basic Thai head clinch on one guy and drive him like a blocker between you and the others. For those who don’t know, a little terminology lesson, this is called stacking the opponents. What you try to do is stack them in a line, so you only have to face one at a time it also forces the others to have to go through their own man to get to you. This technique works regardless of weapon system involved in the conflict.

Again, it’s kind of a snap shot of one guys work so I would hesitate to judge completely, but from what I saw, it would be marginal results at best. I’ll see if I can find a clip of Southnarc. He did a multiple opponent sequence in one of his videos with real resisting opponents in fist helmets. It was very well executed.

Tinman….

 

[Tinman]

OK, my net-fu is weak, so I'll just post the link and you can run over and look for yourself take a look at the trailer for the reverse edge methods volume 2:

ShivWorks

There's a segment towards the very end, the 20 second mark, on multipule opponents. The full video has a better view of the full sequence, but you can get an idea from the trailer, and it's out there for public consumption so I'm not violating any copyrights posting it.

Just for the record, I am not associated with Shivworks nor Southnarc in anyway other than a satisfied training customer. I believe in his stuff, I use his stuff, and I teach his stuff (with his permission).

Tinman....

 

[epsylum]

It has aleady been mentioned, but things like Aikido and Judo (styles that have a lot of standing grappling and joint locks, etc.) are very good. The very little Aikido I have learned is very effective, but definately is something that should be practiced a lot because there is a good bit of finesse required to do it well.

I am currently taking Mauy Thai and am fortunate to have a teacher that doesn't BS his students. He will tell you when something is good for the ring, self defense, or both. He also realizes the deficiencies it has (and thus teaches us other techniques that could come in handy).

As for striking, knees and elbows are better than punches. A bare knuckle punch has a good chance of breaking your hand. The hand has too many small bones in it. Knees and elbows don't.

In a street fight, going to the ground is just stupid. You want the other guy on the ground while remaining standing.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I have a wrestling and jujitsu background so I would rather take it to the ground. All of that karate, akido, judo, boxing, rhino, or whatever is nothing when you are getting choked out. And that is where most fights end up anyway. If the fight is serious. Using a fist to strike a head is a low percentage punch. The head moves around too much. However, a big guy trying to grab you and take you to the ground is different. Basic takedowns and submissions are the way to go

 

[Lars]

I have a wrestling and jujitsu background so I would rather take it to the ground. All of that karate, akido, judo, boxing, rhino, or whatever is nothing when you are getting choked out. And that is where most fights end up anyway. If the fight is serious. Using a fist to strike a head is a low percentage punch. The head moves around too much. However, a big guy trying to grab you and take you to the ground is different. Basic takedowns and submissions are the way to go

In my experience this is only "The way to go" if you are "The big guy". My wife doesn't stand a chance on the ground with a 200lb drunk, regardless of what she knows, and how little he knows. This is why it's so important to be aware of your surroundings, and use that to maintain distance. The disparity of force in that situation is pretty extreme.

 

[epsylum]

I have a wrestling and jujitsu background so I would rather take it to the ground. All of that karate, akido, judo, boxing, rhino, or whatever is nothing when you are getting choked out. And that is where most fights end up anyway. If the fight is serious. Using a fist to strike a head is a low percentage punch. The head moves around too much. However, a big guy trying to grab you and take you to the ground is different. Basic takedowns and submissions are the way to go

What about when his buddy decides to start kicking you while you are on the ground?

You cannot assume a street fight is going to be purely one on one like in MMA.

Personally, the first thing I would do if someone came at me is to put them in a thai clinch, or atleast attempt to (your regular joe schmo isn't looking for that, they just want to throw hay makers) and then knee them into submission. There is nothing low percentage about that. It also allows you to break off the attack at any time if someone else decides to join in.

 

[turnandshoot4]

What about when his buddy decides to start kicking you while you are on the ground?

You cannot assume a street fight is going to be purely one on one like in MMA.

Personally, the first thing I would do if someone came at me is to put them in a thai clinch, or atleast attempt to (your regular joe schmo isn't looking for that, they just want to throw hay makers) and then knee them into submission. There is nothing low percentage about that. It also allows you to break off the attack at any time if someone else decides to join in.

For the record anything more than one versus one warrants higher use of force.

I am not judging anything with MMA just personal experience. Heck, MMA has rules, fights generally don't. The great thing about jujitsu is that if you try to hit me with your knee, grab it and bend/break it. You want to throw a punch grab arm bend it/break it. What ever they give you use it against them.

I know what you are thinking about. No way would I be on my back on the ground waiting for them to come in. You can do most of those moves from a dominant take down position. Wrestler background=good takedowns, jujitsu=good submissions. Besides I can take a couple shots to the noggin while I am getting ahold of an arm. Nothin really important up there anyway.

 

[epsylum]

For the record anything more than one versus one warrants higher use of force.

The problem is that sometimes you don't know it is more than one on one until it is too late.

I understant where you are coming from, submissions are good for h2h fighting, but not the MMA BJJ lay on the back and go for an armbar/triangle/etc. style. That is why I also mentioned Aikido and Judo as both have lots of grappling/submissions/throws that you can do while standing. Muay Thai if done right is just brutal onslaught of strikes that are effective anywhere from grappling distance (elbows and knees) to the edge of kicking distance and maybe just beyond (the "flying" strikes). It is all effective and they each have their pros and cons and in reality should all be used together. As with everything, training is key.

 

[turnandshoot4]

The problem is that sometimes you don't know it is more than one on one until it is too late.

Agreed. Situational awarness is the first priority. Really, I'd like to never be in the situation.

 

[epsylum]

Agreed. Situational awarness is the first priority. Really, I'd like to never be in the situation.

That is why we carry guns, wear seatbelts, and have fire extinguishers. Just in case.

 

[Lars]

It's also why some of use spend years in a DoJo, or other form of Gym, on the mats, in protective gear, getting beaten up.

 

[epsylum]

It's also why some of use spend years in a DoJo, or other form of Gym, on the mats, in protective gear, getting beaten up.

Thanks for reminding me about how I am going to get kicked and kneed tonight......

I can't wait!

 

[ShadowHouse]

Hmmm...

I know I'm new and all...but I've trained a couple weeks in my life.

I'll cut to the chase, most of us train on a one way range, punching holes in paper targets with the occasional aid of a timer. Some will even go so far as to pretend with airsoft.

Is this realistic compared to a 360 degree combat orb or a two way range, probably not, but it's what we have to work with.

Do I think that fighting in a cage with a soft suface in shorts, mouth piece, 5 oz gloves with a ref and timed rounds is street reality...probably not, but it the closest thing we have to work with.

Back when I was doing a lot of NHB (before the PC version = MMA came out) we didn't wear gloves, didn't have a timer, and we could headbutt, kick to the groin, drop elbows from 12 to 6 o'clock on each other etc....that was a little better.

How many of you would like to train either version...I doubt very many. You probably have a job to do and a family to feed and can't afford to be playing super hero, shaved head, tattoo tough guy.

Just a FYI, I run a gym, I'm not posting to market it, I have gleaned a lot of useful information from this site and would like to give back...


When the first punch is thrown, tunnel vision kicks in, if you have not trained much then you tend to mimic what your opponent does. If you have trained then expect your oppenent to mimic you since he is at a loss for tools in the toolbox...just needed to be said.
So...for example, you punch him, he tends to reply the same, you tie up with him, he will do the same, you grab hair...you guessed it.

I tend to start my new people on the ground, because worse case senerio you don't know **** and are waking up to a boot party - post sucker punch..welcome to the real world

Pain and over stimulation to the senses tends to really wear you out and make you feel like you are drowning. People tend to stop breathing and then they think that fighting is like power lifting and throw down with every once of muscle they can into their punches or grab ass wrestling match. The vision goes, the legs feel like rubber and you get the same emotional well-up you had when you couldn't control your temper tantrum when mommy said no when you passed Dairy Queen @ age 3. Mix all of that together and it's not much a fight, it's two out of shape porpoisus fighting for air in a slap fight.

If you think I'm not touching on what you will actually do, humor me and put on some boxing gloves. Stand in front of a heavy bag and time yourself for 5 minutes...punch as fast and hard as you can, basic 1 & 2 punches back and forth over and over with everything you got non-stop, circle the bag but don't let it swing away from you for a break..keep pressing forward and following it.
If you last more then a minute and half...here is your golf clap..clap..clap.

Now the cage door slams shut, you have trained for 6 days a week, your resting heart rate is that of a lizard, you know how to snap all four apendages and strangle the guy half to death that is mad dogging you across the way. The only problem is..so do they.

A lot of peole think it's not realistic, but everyone has a gameplan until you get punched in the face and your nose is @ a 90 degree angle. Regardless of cage or "street" someone raining hammers down on you sucks. If you don't think you will end up on the ground then you know something different then FBI statistics. Where is the first place a LEO wants you? Stomach down hands back...controlled because it works.

The multiple attacker argument... you wake up and there are two of you standing in the living room with bad intent, they are your clones, they have every second of life experience you do...could you beat them? I would bet you would wake up in the ICU.
We learned in first grade how to get on all fours behind someone three stooges style and have your buddy push them over you... weapons are your only real force multiplier.

I have a much more depth of experience then my website states, there really is no point in going over board with self promotion, I tend to do my talking on the mat since I only teach performance based arts/science. There is no theory in my academy, you either tapped me or you didn't, you either knocked me out or you didn't. No foamy pads with a one strike stop, no wrist ballet, no talking for 20 minutes on what I bad ass i was in my youth...just professional gentlemen that want to test their metal using tried and true techniques.

My mentality, some of these are taken from other people, I do not claim to come up with all or any of them...

Be courteus to everyone, friendly to no one, and be prepared to kill everyone you interact with.

Without training, we are nothing but a liability.

If you carry weapons, get training on them, owning a piano doesn't make you a pianist. Getting killed by the equipment you brought to the fight is recieving the Darwin award.

MOSS = there is no "mystic order of secret ****", it does not exsist, the people who but in the time to prepare make it look easy.

30 years of doing it wrong doesn't make it right.

Practice doesn't make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect.

It's only "advanced" until you own the technique, then it becomes part of your toolbox to be pulled out and used like any other basic move.

Walls and floors are harder then hands and feet, introduce your opponents head to them liberally and the little bones in your hands and feet will thank you.

Even an idiot knows @ least one move that Daddy taught them, and it probably works. don't give then the chance to find out. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Dialogue is for amatuers, don't argue...drop them. If there are witnesses, raise both hands up and yell "I don't want to fight" right before your forehead turns their nose into an omlette. People will only remember you didn't want to fight in their statement.

An eight year old can service you permanently with a knife, imagine what a full grown man can do. Nike-Do is your friend. You can always come back and run him over with your truck later. Playing the hero with sharp pointy things will land you in the ICU or a time share 6 foot under. Swords and knives have killed more people then guns ever have.

Your face must make friends with the punch, pro boxers are the best strikers in the world and yet get punched hundreds of times in a fight and they do this fulltime, do you think your 1 hour training in bla bla bla twice a week makes you immune? You will get hit if you blink or not, if you turn away or not, back peddle or not....so you might as well lock it down and give some back.

Getting punched going forward hurts less and does less damage then going backward, don't let them put their weight into it...control the space and distance.

There is a pool of neutral energy and aggressivness between you and your opponent when it starts, you need to immediatly own that pool and continue to take it from him until he is completly crushed.

Don't get creative with muliple attackers, intiate the offense with straight blast punches - keep it simple and long - with 1 & 2 to the face as fast as possible to anyone that is within 5 feet of you. Stay on your feet as long as possible. Don't be shy about deploying a knife, brick or gun with violent intent unless you would like a wheel chair for legs or a grave stone.

Eye wars and aggressivness body language can get your ass shot off. Don't run your mouth or posture up...if they are a threat, service them with extreme prejudice and immediatly destroy them.

A brick to the head is always better then hand to hand.

If you find yourself waking up from a sucker punch in the middle of a boot party..heel hook the nearest leg you can grab so you at least have company in the emergency room.

Stab wounds, broken arms and legs might slow them down..but a good old fashion knock out or strangulation will shut the computer off.

Protect your eyes and stay away from their teeth, gym/mat rats (dojo warriors) sometimes forget about the nasty stuff.

A "friend" that starts **** and then expects you to handle it for them is not a friend...they are a jackass.

The day you think you are a badass is the day a 15 yr old with a baseball bat will prove you wrong.

Remeber the words "I was in fear of my life".

It is better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

I could go on and on but class is starting....

 

[ATM]

I know I'm new and all...but I've trained a couple weeks in my life.

Perhaps the most forward, no-nonsense 3rd post I've read on this board. Thanks for giving back from your experience.

 

[epsylum]

» How to win a fight against twenty children | Cracked.com

 

[rhino]

Fighting 20 children? You'd better be able to defend you lower body ... 40 tiny fists furiously throwing c***-punch after c***-punch is not my idea of a good time.

 

[epsylum]

Fighting 20 children? You'd better be able to defend you lower body ... 40 tiny fists furiously throwing c***-punch after c***-punch is not my idea of a good time.

Yup, that's covered.

Groin attacks.

In general the crotch is a small, easily defensible target, and not typically a factor in most fights at a reasonably professional level. That said, when children are attacked by an adult, they’re rarely going to respond professionally. Again, if you have forewarning that you’ll soon be coming to blows with twenty children, absolutely wear a cup. If you do get struck in the groin, under no circumstances should you place your hand on your genitals to massage away the pain - touching your privates while surrounded by minors is illegal in many states, and frowned upon in the rest.

 

[ATM]

touching your privates while surrounded by minors is illegal in many states

I generally touch no less than corporals if minors are nearby.

 

[rhino]

I contributed to this. I did.

And yet, I'm not ashamed.

I just sent the following to some friends and family that probably won't read this topic:

Please read the article in the link below. It could save your life or that of someone you love some day. My personal comments are below the link.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/2008/08/19/how-to-win-a-fight-against-twenty-children/


As a guy who likes to be prepared for just about anything, this is something I've overlooked until today, and I owe the guy who wrote it a debt of gratitude. Sure, I've mastered fighting 10 children (who hasn't) and I'm confident that on a good day I could annihilate as many as 15, but it never occurred to me to consider much less prepare for an eventual fight with 20 children. This demonstrates a clear deficiency in my preparations and mindset.

I will say that I believe the author glosses-over the potential for debilitating groin attacks. Hell hath no fury like a dozen children furiously punching with 24 tiny fists at man's most delicate bits and I need not remind that the same aforementioned region is well within their pathetic little arms' reach. When the numbers climb to 20, I'm not sure that protective gear is enough of a safeguard. That's 40 mini-haymakers coming at you at any given moment and as the article stated, they don't get tired.

 

[Glock21]

Fighting 20 children? You'd better be able to defend you lower body ... 40 tiny fists furiously throwing c***-punch after c***-punch is not my idea of a good time.

I have a really great come back for this, but it will no doubt cause some trauma for all involved.

...best left as is.