Times 1500 officers, logistically, that is a lot of ammo and time. We get great use of the ammo available to us. The line course we shoot is always the qualification courses, the rest are tactical shooting. Moving and shooting, shooting under stress, that kind of stuff. Low round count per each course but you learn a TON.That seems like such a small amount. I burn through that in 2-3 range trips or in the course of a single day pistol class. Then again, I'm generally just putting holes in paper. There isn't a lot of tactical thought behind it.
Missed this thread the first time around. I'd like to know the answer to this as well.Why not on the AR round
600 rounds x 1500 officers + duty ammo. That is a million rounds a year. Where is the public outcry?
Having seen the autopsy pics on someone shot with this round, I too am curious as to its perceived shortcomings.Missed this thread the first time around. I'd like to know the answer to this as well.
Here's more butthurt material - I drove my police car to BGF when I bought the ammo.
Me too... But apparently Devil knows...Missed this thread the first time around. I'd like to know the answer to this as well.
PM inbound.
The goal of pm'ing was not secrecy, nor fear. Some of what I pm'd him was related to unverified rumblings within the department regarding that round. Which I didn't want to post on the open net until I could get clarification from range staff. I actually just pm'd phylo about that after seeing this thread again. I'll leave it to him to post reference the grumblings, as he is far more "in the know" and would have see the AAR and photos of incidents.cameramonkey said:Why the secrecy? If its legit info you are willing to pass on to others, you shouldnt be afraid to stand behind the facts and post publicly.
I'd be interested to hear more about your impressions.Fargo said:Having seen the autopsy pics on someone shot with this round, I too am curious as to its perceived shortcomings.
From what I remember, the PM included:
1) if you can find it at a gun store, it's like $45 per box of 20 (I know, no price on your life). And unless things have changed, it's hard to buy unless LEO
Easy to find online and you can even buy the projectile its a speer projectile.
2) It's a bonded core soft point, which mean fragmentation is non existent. Everything I've ever read about 5.56 lethality emphasizes fragmentation. The bonded core sp means it'll mushroom, but I don't know how much.
I'd agree 193 is a better round if there is no chance of any kind of barrier, it does mushroom quite nice.
3) There are other option that may fit the roll of home defense better and to read up on them. Such as ballistic tip rounds for inside a home. Not something that is intended to be 'barrier blind'. Meaning, if you miss, a non-BB rd might be lower risk of punching through interior/exterior walls with enough juice left to hurt an unintended target.
Everything will go through interior/exterior walls unless you have brick/concrete walls.
4) When I looked at the specs for the duty round, iirc the MV was much lower than standard 5.56/.223, which would affect POA/POI between practice and defense rounds. At least based on interweb MV numbers on Federal's website. According to federal's own website, the duty round is MV 2705, while AE223 is 3240.
Posted speeds are almost always incorrect, would need to put them both on a chrono and obviously a 62grain is going to be running slower then a 55g.
I'd be interested to hear more about your impressions.
Here's more butthurt material - I drove my police car to BGF when I bought the ammo.
Why the secrecy? If its legit info you are willing to pass on to others, you shouldnt be afraid to stand behind the facts and post publicly.
The goal of pm'ing was not secrecy, nor fear. Some of what I pm'd him was related to unverified rumblings within the department regarding that round.
Frank, it was the information (or misinformation) that I covered during last year's rifle training about our ammo selection. For others interested, there were perceived failures of our rifle ammo to sufficiently penetrate automobiles. These beliefs were based on faulty information about shot placement and unrealistic expectations of what a 55gr projectile is capable of doing against hard targets.
As with most aspects of our (my) job, we have to find a balance between what will best protect our officers yet won't present a significant likelihood of collateral damage. I'm confident that we are where we should be. My brother carries a rifle on my department and I wouldn't put a round in his rifle that I didn't think was sufficient for the job nor one that is likely to create a bad situation for him.
Frank, it was the information (or misinformation) that I covered during last year's rifle training about our ammo selection. For others interested, there were perceived failures of our rifle ammo to sufficiently penetrate automobiles. These beliefs were based on faulty information about shot placement and unrealistic expectations of what a 55gr projectile is capable of doing against hard targets.
As with most aspects of our (my) job, we have to find a balance between what will best protect our officers yet won't present a significant likelihood of collateral damage. I'm confident that we are where we should be. My brother carries a rifle on my department and I wouldn't put a round in his rifle that I didn't think was sufficient for the job nor one that is likely to create a bad situation for him.