What does "chasing the zero" mean?

[threetenbingo]

normaly i just lurk here but i saw this post and wondered something.

I went to an appleseed in Bedford. The guy in the green hat was called Huff and ATM was the "Line Boss" (?). they taught us there to shoot for groups and when our groups shrunk we did a lesson on how to adjust our sights called I-M-C. I don't understand what you mean by "chasing a zero". What exactly were you chasing?

 

[Landon]

normaly i just lurk here but i saw this post and wondered something.

I went to an appleseed in Bedford. The guy in the green hat was called Huff and ATM was the "Line Boss" (?). they taught us there to shoot for groups and when our groups shrunk we did a lesson on how to adjust our sights called I-M-C. I don't understand what you mean by "chasing a zero". What exactly were you chasing?

Thats a great question. I am a newb also and have never heard this before.

 

[ATM]

*Hey MODs, any chance we could break this question/answer off into a new thread for other readers?

normaly i just lurk here but i saw this post and wondered something.

I went to an appleseed in Bedford. The guy in the green hat was called Huff and ATM was the "Line Boss" (?). they taught us there to shoot for groups and when our groups shrunk we did a lesson on how to adjust our sights called I-M-C. I don't understand what you mean by "chasing a zero". What exactly were you chasing?

Glad you signed up! That was a great shoot down at Bedford. The relays made it a little challenging but everyone did a great job being safe, improving their marksmanship and having a fine time.

I just want to explain briefly why Appleseed does it this way.

Why does Appleseed start with groups before zero?

Our focus is always on groups first because they give us the most feedback about what the shooter is doing. Simply getting on paper so you can see the group is enough to begin diagnosing and improving.
Many times, as shooters begin practicing proper fundamentals, their group starts to shrink and become more defined. Also, the point of impact for their whole group may change as they fix shooting errors or develop a better or more consistent cheek weld.
It would be inefficient for most people to change their rifle zero (moving the sights) every time their point of impact changed (due to any number of other variables).
After a few courses of fire and applying what is instructed, most shooters' group size and placement settles down and they are ready to measure, calculate and adjust the sights to move that controlled group onto the center of the target.

Some confusion happens when the rifle zero is used synonymously with a shooter's point of impact. They are different things.
A properly functioning rifle has a zero point for a given distance yet two different shooters may have different points of impact when they use it depending on many factors including but not limited to: their shooting mechanics, steady hold factors, natural point of aim, sling tension, trigger control, their sight alignment, cheekweld, clarity of target to complete the sight picture, breathing and even the cadence of their shots.
There are many others as well and most require group feedback to diagnose and overcome. Not just the placement, but the changes in size and shape tell us where to look. Some, unfortunately, require optical correction. My eyes aren't quite what they once were, either.

Once in a while it really is the rifle. That may require loctite.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

My fault for using "zero" overbroadly then. Sorry if I caused confusion to any fellow INGOers.

 

[ATM]

My fault for using "zero" overbroadly then. Sorry if I caused confusion to any fellow INGOers.

I just figured it was a British thing. I knew what you meant.


Also, I should fess up. This statement of mine may have been slightly misleading:

...My eyes aren't quite what they once were, either.

I am, in fact, completely blind



...and Chinese



...but very wise.

 

[Bill of Rights]

*Hey MODs, any chance we could break this question/answer off into a new thread for other readers?

Nope. No chance of that.

 

[threetenbingo]

I had a unbelievable time at Bedford.

I was just wondering. I had my scope dialed to 7 and wasn't shooting very tightly. After our first square I wanted to adjust my scope and there was a young girl instructing (maybe mid-20s) and she told me not to mess with it but to zoom my scope out and quit "chasing bullet holes". I did not want to but the guy in the General Lee said she knew what she was doing. Once I figured out how to listen and we did IMC (a couple times because I am stoopid) I was in the black. GREAT TIME IN BEDFORD. Way better shooter now, better cook at least.

 

[rockhopper46038]

Kirk, were you at that shoot? I would have liked to have met you. I think I witnessed the conversation just above, and as threetenbingo says, she was cautioning against the urge to use the high power of the scope to "hold over" a correction for where you saw your last shot put a hole in the target. That was my first Appleseed with a scope, and I dialed mine up to 9x after I heard her say that, just to see what she was talking about...and quickly dialed it back to 3x.

 

[ATM]

...she told me not to mess with it but to zoom my scope out and quit "chasing bullet holes". I did not want to but the guy in the General Lee said she knew what she was doing...

That was probably HQ, she's wicked smart and just earned her red hat last weekend at the Atlanta event..

Those blue hats hangin' out in the General Lee down at Bedford are all very wise, too.

ETA: September Bedford AAR link: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=25045.0

Kirk, were you at that shoot? I would have liked to have met you...

No, this is a continuation of a topic split from the Crawfordsville shoot thread.

I just asked if it could get it's own thread for discussion.

 

[yellowhousejake]

I just want to explain briefly why Appleseed does it this way.

Everyone, go, read that post again. It is pure gold and something nearly no one understands until they attend an Appleseed. You have to be willing to open your mind and accept the instruction (nothing says you can't ignore it after you leave if you so choose). We didn't invent this stuff, it came from some really smart folks who sought out the things great marksmen did and distilled them down to the core fundamentals.

I tried to reward ATM for such a clear and well written description, but the universe stands in my way.

Clearly, I need more friends to give rep to.

YHJ

 

[ATM]

...but the universe stands in my way.

The universe has been mad at me since that "incident" last month.

 

[yellowhousejake]

The universe has been mad at me since that "incident" last month.

Tanerite and hamsters do NOT mix.

YHJ

 

[Bill of Rights]

Tanerite and hamsters do NOT mix.

YHJ

Sure they do! What was that old comedy routine of Robin Williams'?

<Fred Rogers>"Let's put Mr. Hamster in the microwave, ok? He knows where he's going."

<beeeeeep> "Pop goes the weasel!"

"That's severe radiation. Can you say severe radiation? Look, you've got a little balloon now...."</Fred Rogers>

(Reality: What a concept.)

 

[threetenbingo]

Thanks for the help guys. It was more than i expected.

I think part of my problem was being zoomed in and following holes but there was another part of that she talked about. She said I can't just look through my scope, I had to focus on the center of the crosshairs or the post. That shrunk the bejezus out of my groups and when i went home I shot my AR focusing on the iron post and that really shrunk them to.

Honestly I went with a scoped Marlin because i didn't think I could pass the AQT without a scope. Huff told me that it didn't matter what I shot, the shooting happened behind the gun. "Its the software not the hardware." is what he called it. Well I am a believer now. I sold my single point sling to a guy at work who wouldn't come to the shoot with me. Its his loss though because I got my money back off the sling and got a GI sling at the surplus store in Bedford. woot

thanks for making a topic of this. I hear it all the time but never udnerstand what it means.