What do to about bad OC?

[Que]

I was standing right out in front of my apartment on the West side of Bloomington just before 11pm tonight, and three guys came walking down the sidewalk, talking loudly, one of them OC'ing a .38 in a cheap holster. The impression that they gave was very much one of looking for trouble. My friend, who is also licensed to carry, was standing with me and said the same thing after the fact. We politely said "hello" and Mr. .38 loudly replied "Yeah. Nice evening ain't it!" while strutting down the sidewalk. After they passed us, we stood quietly and watched them until they were out of sight.

My question is this-- under what circumstances would you call the cops on someone who was OC'ing? I realize that many folks think that OC is a great idea. I don't. I realize that I'll get flak for saying that, but I do think that everyone has to agree that some OC crosses the line into being intimidating and inappropriate.

Because of the neighborhood, the time of night, and the general attitude and appearance of the men, I was concerned. I would have been much less bothered by it had my wife and infant daughter not been at home, but as it happened, they were only 15 or so feet away, on the other side of a ground floor window with the shades drawn.

What do you think?

I would look at this in a different way. If those guys did mean harm to you or your family and had the gun concealed, you probably would not have given it a second thought. Because it was exposed, you had a better opportunity to watch them. I would not agree they needed watching, but it's just another way to look at it.

Also, whenever someone is OCing, I would guess they have no intention of doing anything stupid.

 

[Woodrow]

You're alienating someone who is defending your rights. Everyone doesn't have to agree. This man is doing something I've never seen you do: He is defending something with which he does not agree but agrees should be your own, individual choice.

Semper Fi!

Blessings,
Bill

This belief is shared by all too few, on this site and throughout the gun-owning community. There is nothing wrong with spirited debate, but attacking someone's point-of-view in such a way as to make it obvious that it is the individual, not the idea being castigated is not debate. It is childish and it is a tool of the opposition.

For the record, I don't Open-Carry. Why? No one's damn business. I fully support Open-Carry. Based on what was written, I don't agree with the OP's assessment of his situation, but I wasn't there and I cannot abide by an armchair quarterback.

Rep inbound Bill, good post.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Nor do I need to. How often are non-LEO OCers attacked? How about CCers? Here's a hint: one of those two groups is attacked with exactly the same regularity as the unarmed - the other group, far less.

I'd like to read the study and statistics on that one. Got a link?

 

[ProLibertate]

I'd like to read the study and statistics on that one. Got a link?

+1

Also, it's important to remember that open carry is not the norm. It is the minority. By a landslide. So, it would stand to reason that the numbers would be lower for OC.
I have also taken theft/robbery reports TWICE for open carriers who were relieved of their firearms by their attacker during a robbery.
It's easy to say, "That won't happen to me!" until it does.

I have yet to hear a coherent rebuttal to the statement that OC takes away your ability to choose time of engagement and ability to disengage...
Anyone?

 

[Woodrow]

Just to clarify...

Thank you Bill, for acknowledging that there is plenty of room for differing or opposing viewpoints within the gun-owning community at large. When some individuals attack others' opinions with the intention of mud-slinging the individual, we a great disservice to what should be a unified front. Agree or disagree, but remember, we are on the same side, despite the nuances.

 

[eldirector]

I'd like to read the study and statistics on that one. Got a link?

Unfortunately, I don't think any organization categorizes crime victims by CC vs. OC vs. unarmed. That WOULD be an interesting statistic.

I follow ATM's logic, though. The Bad Guy (tm) cannot distinguish between an unarmed target and a CC target, so would treat them the same.

We do hear MANY stories of would-be victims fighting off their attackers with a concealed weapon. There are whole magazines, news columns, and forums dedicated to these stories. We don't hear much at all about victims who openly carry. I've only heard of 1 (the guy attacked in either Wisconsin or Minnesota, and had his weapon stolen). So, evidence suggests.....

 

[printcraft]

Unfortunately, I don't think any organization categorizes crime victims by CC vs. OC vs. unarmed. That WOULD be an interesting statistic.

I follow ATM's logic, though. The Bad Guy (tm) cannot distinguish between an unarmed target and a CC target, so would treat them the same.

We do hear MANY stories of would-be victims fighting off their attackers with a concealed weapon. There are whole magazines, news columns, and forums dedicated to these stories. We don't hear much at all about victims who openly carry. I've only heard of 1 (the guy attacked in either Wisconsin or Minnesota, and had his weapon stolen). So, evidence suggests.....

So what your are saying is anecdotal evidence suggests that criminals see
no distinction between unarmed victims and armed concealed carriers.
Will attack them with the same regularity, only to find out that they are
armed and fought against.

Well then, why aren't OC'ers attacked with the same regularity?
They must be far luckier is all I can tell.

 

[finity]

I have also taken theft/robbery reports TWICE for open carriers who were relieved of their firearms by their attacker during a robbery.

I've only heard of 1 (the guy attacked in either Wisconsin or Minnesota, and had his weapon stolen). So, evidence suggests.....

Now you've heard of at least 3.

My guess is it's happened more but it just doesn't make the headlines.

 

[ProLibertate]

Now you've heard of at least 3.

My guess is it's happened more but it just doesn't make the headlines.

If it wasn't on the news, it didn't happen...

But seriously, it's not all that uncommon for me to come home after work and see the media recap a run I was on, and all I can think is, "Wow, that's not how that went down at all!"
Not to mention all the runs (some of a serious nature) that never even receive mention on the news or in the paper.

 

[Beau]

to GlockednLocked

Of course you're right: if I had been wearing a wifebeater while drinking my beer in the front yard, I wouldn't have been at all fazed by the man in the wifebeater walking past me with a gun on his hip. I was just overdressed for the occasion. Mostly I was afraid that he'd try to steal my belt [the OCer had his holster clipped to a belt loop on his jeans.]

There are a couple of comments that were made that I wanted to touch on briefly.

1. The assertion that a gun needn't attract any more attention that a wallet, cell phone, etc-- do most of you agree or disagree?

2. OC commits you to action in a way that CC doesn't. Yes or no?

3. Any reasonable person considers everyone around them to be armed. Is that your expectation when you're out in public?

peace
Andrew

1) Simple answer, agree.
No it needn't. That doesn't mean it will not attract attention. What it needn't do is cause action on another persons part if gun is being peaceably carried.

2) Yes/No. There is no definate answer to this question. To answer yes, you have to assume that every criminal while committing a crime will automatically notice your OC and take immediate action against you. To answer no, you have to assume the opposite.

3) A big YES. I consider everyone around me to be possible armed. Unless of course they have an Obama sticker on their car.

 

[eldirector]

So what your are saying is anecdotal evidence suggests that criminals see
no distinction between unarmed victims and armed concealed carriers.
Will attack them with the same regularity, only to find out that they are
armed and fought against.

Well then, why aren't OC'ers attacked with the same regularity?
They must be far luckier is all I can tell.

Pretty simple, actually. If given two targets, the criminal would choose the lower risk and/or higher success rate. Wouldn't you?

Boy, this turned into the old OC vs. CC pretty quick.

 

[Joe Williams]

Now you've heard of at least 3.

My guess is it's happened more but it just doesn't make the headlines.

No, I've heard claims of three. Without links to the reports, or something to substantiate those claims, all they are is talk.

 

[ATM]

I'd like to read the study and statistics on that one. Got a link?

Nope, just two questions and a hint to the conclusion. If you want to do a formal study, I'll ETA my post and link to yours.

+1

Also, it's important to remember that open carry is not the norm. It is the minority. By a landslide. So, it would stand to reason that the numbers would be lower for OC.

I didn't specify "by percentages" but my comparison of regularity should have implied such. To compare the simple raw numbers would lead one to many erroneous conclusions such as: being unarmed makes you a more attractive target of attack than having even a hidden firearm (since most people don't carry).

It's easy to say, "That won't happen to me!" until it does.

Anything can happen to anyone. What's not easy for me is assigning paramount importance to anomaly scenarios to the exclusion of the more common.

I have yet to hear a coherent rebuttal to the statement that OC takes away your ability to choose time of engagement and ability to disengage...
Anyone?

As the defender of an attack, the aggressor already chose for me. I'd like to influence his choice and avoid any engagement. Not many of the scenarios I concern myself with involve me deciding at what point I'd like to become the aggressor and turn the tables on a bad guy by digging for my "surprise" while he shoots at me.

 

[MinuteMan47]

+1

Also, it's important to remember that open carry is not the norm. It is the minority. By a landslide. So, it would stand to reason that the numbers would be lower for OC.

Well, on the flip side if an OCer were attacked and disarmed then then percentage would RISE tremendously. Since, as you say, it is not the norm and the number of OCers are fewer.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Well then, why aren't OC'ers attacked with the same regularity?
They must be far luckier is all I can tell.

Just like the last unsupported wild statement, I'd sure like to look at the material you used to arrive at that conclusion.

You know, the same kind of thing OC proponents start demanding when logic dictates a determined robber would just shoot them first and the CC guy will have a nice easy shot to the back of the bad guy's head while he's shooting it out with the armed guy first.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Nope, just two questions and a hint to the conclusion. If you want to do a formal study, I'll ETA my post and link to yours.

Thanks. That's what I thought. I'd be more incline to call it "your own wild butt conclusion based on nothing more than the agenda you want it to support" rather than "THE conclusion" as if it's the only obvious out come.

 

[ATM]

Thanks. That's what I thought. I'd be more incline to call it "your own wild butt conclusion based on nothing more than the agenda you want it to support" rather than "THE conclusion" as if it's the only obvious out come.

If you actually come up with a different conclusion, then there will be two and someone will probably do an official study to support one.

At this point, I just haven't heard of anyone reaching different conclusions.

What's so wild about thinking it seems obvious?

Either there is a difference in the rate or they are similar.

 

[Bendrx]

I firmly believe that OC deters most crime. I also firmly believe that if you come against one the of the more rare thugs that isn't scared off then you're now at a disadvantage. Either way you only win in some of the senarios. OC is both right and wrong, just like CC is both right and wrong.

Now, I do it the only way that's always right, I half butt conceal FTW!!!!! Is it concealed, or is it OC, that way the crooks don't know if they should be afraid of me or not, and thier fear of being afraid scares them all away!

 

[glockednlocked]

wessssiiiideeeee we dont even use no holster thingys we open up a can oh carry whupppazzz

 

[cartmanfan15]

I can see where people would think that OC would deter criminals. Not only would that give them the owner to worry about, but also anyone else who might be carrying.

But, I guess it would also depend on the town you live in. Maybe crime just doesn't seem that bad in Bloomington, but I can see where OC would not deter criminals as much in maybe the east side of Gary or something.