Well, it finally happened to me...

[shibumiseeker]

Me too, but he can still be thankful that he didn't have to make that compromise to protect his family.

In any combat situation there is luck and there is skill, and it takes both to win.

I've run through the scenarios many times in my head and trained to react to some of the most common, but there will always be an element of luck.

I really don't care if some folks think less of me for what I am about to say next. I've seen a lot of things in my life and had things done to me that have hardened my thinking in this matter:

I really, really hope I never kill someone in self defense (or any way really, but we're talking self defense in this thread). In a big way I hope this. I've devoted a large portion of my life to helping other people and saving other people's lives. But the moment someone makes the conscious decision, drug crazed or any other crazed decision, to harm me or my family physically, I don't care one bit about their life. What I DO care about is the social and legal repercussions afterwards. That's what worries me the most, and when I have bad dreams about defending myself resulting in someone else getting hurt or killed, it's not the "oh, I just took a life" that wakes me up, it's the "oh, now I'm going to spend years in jail and lose what I have" that wakes me up scared. I know myself pretty well, and I know how I react to traumatic events, and I know how I react to stress situations and people dying during them. I'm reasonably sure I would feel no guilt whatsoever about the bad guy dying while I survived. I've said it before, death is not the worst thing that can happen to a person. Been there, seen it, got a taste of it.

 

[dead2rights]

Good job not killing the fool. There's a lot of gun nuts that would have loved to be in your shoes just so they could say they legally shot someone. You can be both happy and proud that you had the self control not to do something that would be seared in your family's minds forever.

 

[redpitbull44]

My 3 and 4 year old have no idea this even happened because I didn't shoot him. Their rooms are right next to our room, and they never woke up. Don't take this wrong, you guys can armchair commando all you want, but every situation is different. And realize, I KNOW THIS MAN. He wasn't some random guy breaking into my house, I COULD NOT SEE anything he had on his person until AFTER I told him to go outside, and upon entry, his first words were "DON'T SHOOT" and "HELP ME". It was only after I got him outside, and could actually SEE what he had on him that I realized his plan was to rob my house, and by that time, I had deescalated the situation to a point where I did not feel he was a threat. Had he been silent, or a stranger, my original post would have read much differently.

Taking a human life is a complex thing. It is by and large one of the hardest things in the world to do, yet it's also one of the easiest.

 

[T.Lex]

This is a shot in the dark (pardon the pun), but do you think some part of your brain recognized this guy, or because he was at least somewhat familiar, you paused just that extra second?

I mean, if you accept that any hesitation on your part might have had disastrous consequences, there was some reason - beyond the complexity of killing.

It also makes me think, what if he'd been yelling "POLICE" or something?

And please, this isn't armchair quarterbacking - at least not from me. In this situation, you scored 100%, plus some extra credit.

I just get curious about this stuff.

A close relative of mine was once in one of those dark-alley situations. Like you, she hesitated a split second on her trigger squeeze and realized it was a pre-teen kid pointing a toy gun at her. I just gotta believe that there's some subconscious part of the brain that kicks in during certain situations....

 

[shibumiseeker]

You guys can armchair commando all you want, .

You may or may not have been including me in this, but:

I thought long and hard before I posted in this thread. I hope you understand it was not my intention to even imply I was armchair QBing your actions. Quite the opposite, you used skill and had luck, and you and your family get to carry on relatively unscathed, I applaud that and hope that if I am ever faced with a similar scenario, I can come away from it in a similar fashion.

 

[printcraft]

Yikes.


Johnny was going to rob you to:

A) Pay off the drug dealers

B) Buy more meth


I don't doubt for a second that were you not armed and already
pointing a gun at poor old Johnny that your experience would read much different.

He did not come to you for help because someone was after him.
For him to even begin to imply otherwise severely strains credulity.


One thing I can agree with old Johnny on is.........
I typically wear masks and break into peoples homes when I need help, so I can see where that would happen.......

 

[redpitbull44]

No, let me say now that I have this same incident posted on another board, and that was directed more towards those guys.

Also, I didn't mean that in a "You guys don't know crap" sorta way. What I meant is every single situation is different. If he'd have been wearing pink, or shouting police, or had been silent, if it had been 45 minutes earlier or later, or any number of other things, outcomes would have gone differently.

 

[mainjet]

In his hands were a flatbar and a pair of bolt cutters. In his back pocket was a pair of pliers. In his front pocket were several wads of rope, a digital camera hanging from a case around his neck, and a 5-6" hunting knife hanging from his belt.

As I read this story I was actually waiting for the punch line. Are you kidding me?! I would have pulled the trigger on that guy no question. He wasn't knocking, he was knocking your door down.

Everyone has to make their own choice on if they are going to pull the trigger because it's yours and your families butts onthe line. So I am sure that you did what you felt was necessary to save you and your family. You are still all alive and well so good for you.

For me, I would have to say if someone actually kicked in my door, particularly at a time when they know someone is probably home... I have to believe that I am using deadly force. I am not going to get into a wrestling match with a drugged up wild man.

Gald you and yours are are still healthy.

 

[redpitbull44]

I hate it that I did hesitate for that second, but not because he is alive and in prison. No, I hate it because it is the first time I've EVER hesitated, and it could have been the time that counted the MOST. That is what is bugging me I think.

 

[redpitbull44]

For me, I would have to say if someone actually kicked in my door

He didn't kick the door in. He used the flat bar, pried the door away from the jamb, and shoved it open.

I am not going to get into a wrestling match with a drugged up wild man.

Me neither.

 

[thompal]

You guys can armchair commando all you want, but realize, I KNOW THIS MAN. He wasn't some random guy breaking into my house, I COULD NOT SEE anything he had on his person until AFTER I told him to go outside

Please don't think I'm trying to armchair quarter back. It's more like I'm trying to understand your thinking/decision-making.

In your original post, you said that when he initially invaded your house, he had a mask on which covered his face, and you had actually pointed your handgun at him before he removed his mask. Did you somehow recognize him with the mask on, which resulted in you not shooting? Was the moment's hesitation more a result of your concern with the AC, clothes, etc?

You also say that you couldn't see if he was carrying anything until later, but that also means that you couldn't see if he had a handgun. You say he did have a knife.

Things turned out as best as they possibly could, given the idiot's decision to commit a home invasion. However, the thing that keeps nagging me is that he had on a mask, kicked in your door, was armed with a knife, and was within feet of your baby. Things could have EASILY and QUICKLY turned out to be the WORST possible scenario for you, and at the moment he still had his mask on, and you had a gun pointed at him, what made you decide to NOT shoot in that split second?

I hope to NEVER have to kill anyone. But, my family's lives are more important to me than ANYONE who has decided to kick in my door and come in with a mask on. I certainly don't want to shoot anyone who legitimately has a reason to wear a face mask, kick in my door, and come in my house armed, but I'm trying to understand how you came to that conclusion.

 

[T.Lex]

No, I hate it because it is the first time I've EVER hesitated, and it could have been the time that counted the MOST. That is what is bugging me I think.

Don't beat yourself up about it.

Honestly, I highlighted what is really the important part. Your hesitation is the time that DID count most for that kid. In a very real way, you saved his life literally. Now, if he gets out of the drugs, and does something useful with his life, it'll be bonus.

Brass tacks time, though - your hesitation (and long trigger pull) saved his life just as surely as if you'd pulled him unconscious from a burning car.

To put it a different way, certainly more dramatically, I believe in good and evil in this world. In that instant, you were at a place where the two collided - him as the pointy end of the stick on one side, and you on the other. I don't know how religious you are, but I don't think it is too melodramatic to say a higher power intervened. (I could go on about how evil takes advantage of the weak, but that might be a bit preachy.)

One of the benefits of living right, I guess, eh?

 

[redpitbull44]

Please don't think I'm trying to armchair quarter back. It's more like I'm trying to understand your thinking/decision-making.

In your original post, you said that when he initially invaded your house, he had a mask on which covered his face, and you had actually pointed your handgun at him before he removed his mask. Did you somehow recognize him with the mask on, which resulted in you not shooting? Was the moment's hesitation more a result of your concern with the AC, clothes, etc?

You also say that you couldn't see if he was carrying anything until later, but that also means that you couldn't see if he had a handgun. You say he did have a knife.

Things turned out as best as they possibly could, given the idiot's decision to commit a home invasion. However, the thing that keeps nagging me is that he had on a mask, kicked in your door, was armed with a knife, and was within feet of your baby. Things could have EASILY and QUICKLY turned out to be the WORST possible scenario for you, and at the moment he still had his mask on, and you had a gun pointed at him, what made you decide to NOT shoot in that split second?

I hope to NEVER have to kill anyone. But, my family's lives are more important to me than ANYONE who has decided to kick in my door and come in with a mask on. I certainly don't want to shoot anyone who legitimately has a reason to wear a face mask, kick in my door, and come in my house armed, but I'm trying to understand how you came to that conclusion.

Ok, I see what you are asking me now. From the first time he hit the door to him saying "Don't shoot, its me, Johnny" while removing his mask was LESS THAN 8 seconds. He was entering the room as I was turning with the gun. I shoot from a modified ISO stance. I had just extended my arms and began to depress the trigger when what he was saying, the form of his body, and the shape of his face (he's 6'4" and lanky) registered enough to cause me a millisecond of pause. I was literally 1/8" and a few lbs of trigger pull from emptying 11 rounds of 230 grain Hydra-Shoks into him man. It happened SOOO fast, it was just sheer luck or God's will that I didn't ventilate him. All of the other things that I listed before, (personal belongings, childrens ears, and lives being ruined, etc) crossed my mind the two seconds after I registered who he was, and was still contemplating shooting him, and then decided not to because I didn't want to deal with it if I didn't have to.

 

[mrjarrell]

I'm going to echo what's been said before. Good job. Can't fault you for waiting that extra moment. Everyone got out alive and safe. Hope I never find myself in your shoes, but you did well!

 

[kludge]

The man was wearing a ... turkey hunter style face mask.

IMO he was up to no good.

You done good.

 

[Knuckle Head]

Dang! Glad to hear you guys are okay. Johnny T. Jerk*ff was up to no good. No telling what I would have done....... , I hope I'll never have to find out.
Hmm, I wonder what would have done.....

 

[jarheadcatfan]

I think you did a great job in following your plan. This time it worked out for him and your family. Hopefully the next time it does too!

 

[GuyRelford]

Amazing story! Thanks for sharing it.

I'd love to read the police report. Did you get a copy? If not, which law enforcement agency responded?

 

[trinitrotoluene85]

I might chalk it up to luckiness. You're both lucky. You're both lucky that you hesitated long enough to identify that he wasn't a threat. That way you didn't shoot/kill this person you knew. You're also lucky that he wasn't an armed invader. That moments hesitation could've gotten you hurt or killed. From that standpoint you're lucky.

Just rest safely tonight knowing a perp is in jail, your family is safe, and you don't have the guilt of knowing you had to hurt or kill someone.

 

[BumpShadow]

posted this in another thread, but it seems appropriate here as well.

Resistance to Kill