Water Cooled Belt Guns - Ideas, Discussion and Recommendations

[JTinIN]

Considering getting a shooter grade water cooled belt gun and would appreciate anyone's ideas, experiences, recommendations and possible trigger time if I bring the ammo. But for now most discussion on line or off line.

Primarily a shooter and for the cost a side plate gun is fine. Being able to convert to a range of calibers is a positive as have seen corrosive 8mm and 30-06 in the US dry up and non corrosive 308 appears to be doing the same this year. At the moment 7.62x54r is the best low cost corrosive ammo, however, with a few pen lines from DC one could see that drying up for political reasons.

Options:
1917A1 / 1928 Browning Machine Gun - Plus internal parts are often common with the 1919A4, fires 30-06 so should always be able to get brass for a cost, uses USGI BMG belts which with a loader work well and are still around. Down side not sure of a good working 54r conversion for the 1917A1. Probably the newest design of the common water cooled guns.

Vickers - Always liked the Vickers, however, passed on one years ago due to 303 drying up, but now days you can get a 54r conversion. Parts are getting harder to find (as with most all 100 year old non US designed guns)

Russian 1910 Maxim - Native caliber is 54r, not sure if many good conversions if 54r drys up, nice metal belts, well built but heavy gun on wheeled mount ...

German 08 Maxim - Had dropped from the list until pointed out that can covert to 54r and might have more options for calibers as the 8mmis a longer round than some others.

Note eliminated the German 08/15, lower cost but does not stick my fancy and any of the really cool C&R guns which are nearly one of samples..

Background:
Have a 1919A4 and MM23eK but always been looking at water cooled belt guns and if things go one way may end up "needing" to obtain another machine gun.

 

[duffman0286]

There are conversions to 54r for 1919's that i know of and the great thing is there is no real modification to these weapons so caliber changes are fairly easy to do and i have also seen many people convert there 1919's in various water cooled models so that could be a route for you to considered and the 1919 seem to be a bit more common so that might help in the price department

 

[JTinIN]

Thanks, both good ideas. Having the 1919A4 rebuilt is an option that I have considered in the past, when 28 kits were common.

Was looking at the 54r conversions, but have not known any one with one at the moment. The kits maybe temperamental, thus was hoping to run across a few guys here that were running water cooled and/or 54r BMG kits in particular on the 1917A1 or '28.

 

[duffman0286]

well your in the wrong forum for 1919 info beltfed shooters or 1919.com are two you might want to have a look at them the 54r kit is starting to get very popular and i havent heard any negative feed back about them... i shot a 1919 in vegas a few years back that was a 54r conversion the guy ever had anything bad to say about the conversion and he takes it to knob creek twice a year as a rental gun.... that might be something you might consider Kentucky isnt that far off and fall show isnt all that far away.... im sure you would see a few 54r conversions running down there

 

[JTinIN]

Have a posting in Beltfed shooters, however, had hopped to hit a few guys locally, that I did not already know and/or or generate a little more discussion here on "real machine guns" (i.e. ones with a belt).

Use to hit KCR several times a year (including the two shows ;-), until medical issues got in the way any time it was wet and muddy (ha ha), however, might just have gotten the medical issue correct and should be back down this fall if all goes well, possible helping score the subgun match again.

Thanks
John

 

[duffman0286]

check out Weaponeer.net as well they more tune to the builder or dity type

 

[JTinIN]

check out Weaponeer.net as well they more tune to the builder or dity type

Thanks! Willl do.

 

[03A3]

JT I have a 1919 (not in 54R), but have zero experiance with a 1917A1/1928.
Myself I would want to go with the 1917A1/1928 due the the parts, belts and accessories availability as you mentioned.
I cannot remember who, but there is a member on the 1919 forum who does the 54R conversion. If I recall correctly all of the conversions I've seen there were done to the 1919, but I may have missed something too.
There were some posts on there at times where a few people were having teething problems with their new conversion but in the end they were resolved with some tweaking.
Is not the barrel extension, bolt and lock frame the same between the 1917A1/1928 and the 1919? If that is the case a 54R conversion should be possible though I don't know that to be fact.
I've seen 54R 1919's run like a stripped ape at Knob Creek. If I had more money and/or fewer ongoing projects I would like to try a 54R conversion myself.
Also if you end up selling those 1919 parts you had posted drop me a line.

 

[CarmelHP]

Everyone that I have ever talked to about watercooleds say that the M1917 is the way to go for reliability and versatility. If you have a 1919, a M1917 is the natural companion.

 

[indy1919a4]

I read this a few days ago.. And My knee jerk reaction was a conversion of the 1919a4 to a water cooled, You already know how to maintain the gun and have parts..

But I really do not think the real question is what water cooled to get, As much as what Water cooled to get for the ammo that will be available in the future..

Of all the rounds mentioned, The one that is still being made for Many of the worlds Armies is the 7.62 nato, Yes the price has jumped up. But they are making alot of that round today And in theory it should be available in the future on the surplus Market..

But I do have faith in the American tinkerer to come up with a conversion for what ever ammo is cheapest in the future.. And with so many different types of 1919s out in private hands there is large group of Potential customers to tinker for..

 

[JTinIN]

One open question is if the 1917A1 converted from the 1919A4 can be reasonable setup in say 7.62x54R (current low cost ammo) and 7.62 NATO (long term option) ....

Of course the other option is for go the water cooled and stay with the 1919A4, but that is one of the reasons for the discussions.

Thanks

 

[indy1919a4]

One open question is if the 1917A1 converted from the 1919A4 can be reasonable setup in say 7.62x54R (current low cost ammo) and 7.62 NATO (long term option) ....

Of course the other option is for go the water cooled and stay with the 1919A4, but that is one of the reasons for the discussions.

Thanks

Have seen a 1919a4 run on 7.62 nato

Have seen a 1919a4 tun on 54R

Have seen a 1919a4 converted to look like a water Cooled..

Have heard of some guys who have the ability to change out parts to shoot several different calibers (Barrel, Booster etc etc)

So it is all possible

 

[JTinIN]

Have seen a 1919a4 run on 7.62 nato

Have seen a 1919a4 tun on 54R

Have seen a 1919a4 converted to look like a water Cooled..

Have heard of some guys who have the ability to change out parts to shoot several different calibers (Barrel, Booster etc etc)

So it is all possible

I don't have a 54r kit for my 1919A4, yet ;-), it is currently running 7.62 NATO but I am nearly our of ammo (below 20K) and have not tried Wolf yet between the Wolf keeps getting sold out or I run into more ammo being surplus due to age of the shooter (not much older than me ...). 30-06 and 8mm are easy swaps.

The 54R uses a different top cover that is modified, don't know if cost or technical issues prevent the same modifications on the 1917 as the 1919.

 

[indy1919a4]

I don't have a 54r kit for my 1919A4, yet ;-), it is currently running 7.62 NATO but I am nearly our of ammo (below 20K) and have not tried Wolf yet between the Wolf keeps getting sold out or I run into more ammo being surplus due to age of the shooter (not much older than me ...). 30-06 and 8mm are easy swaps.

The 54R uses a different top cover that is modified, don't know if cost or technical issues prevent the same modifications on the 1917 as the 1919.

Wolf?? Do not recall seeing wolf 7.62 Nato before, Silver Bear, Brown Bear.. but never Wolf. Silver Bear & Brown bear makes mine run sluggish...

South African and German 7.62 nato work great..

Have you ever used the Pakistani 7.62??????.. Was going to just use it in the Mauser as long as South African is still out there.. I figure the Paki is Corrosive.


Love the photo, Love seeing the empty brass & links down on the ground where the good Lord & Mr Browning intended.. Not a big fan of those after market Tripods that catch the brass & the links...

 

[JTinIN]

Wolf?? Do not recall seeing wolf 7.62 Nato before, Silver Bear, Brown Bear.. but never Wolf. Silver Bear & Brown bear makes mine run sluggish...

South African and German 7.62 nato work great..

Have you ever used the Pakistani 7.62??????.. Was going to just use it in the Mauser as long as South African is still out there.. I figure the Paki is Corrosive.


Love the photo, Love seeing the empty brass & links down on the ground where the good Lord & Mr Browning intended.. Not a big fan of those after market Tripods that catch the brass & the links...

Have not tried Wolf, some of the guys don't like steel on the BMG, so as long as find ammo for close to the price of Wolf (which is now days thirty some cents a round ... ouch) I tend to shoot the brass case. A maybe 10K of SA left plus a few thousand each of RG, Port and maybe Germany ... but when the US 308 runs dry, will have to think about shooting of the the last three in the semi guns (HK, FAL and bolt).

If you look close will find some 54R brass, but that is from the next gun over on the firing line.

 

[03A3]

JT did you post this on the 1919A4 forum?
If anyone can help you with the 1917/54R conversion it will be them.

 

[duffman0286]

Is that pkm yours thats a beautiful machine gun one of MARCOLMAR's?

 

[JTinIN]

Is that pkm yours thats a beautiful machine gun one of MARCOLMAR's?

The NFA PKM is not mine and the answer to your question is yes ;-).

 

[JTinIN]

JT did you post this on the 1919A4 forum?
If anyone can help you with the 1917/54R conversion it will be them.

Thanks, good idea. I just did it now (hope I am not tared and feathered for asking ... but did include comment on using replacement parts for the modification.)

 

[03A3]

Thanks, good idea. I just did it now (hope I am not tared and feathered for asking ... but did include comment on using replacement parts for the modification.)

I don't anticipate any tar and feathers. They're a good bunch over there, with many very knowledgeable members.
I'm interested in what they have to say about it.