Vaccines and Autism

[Alpo]

This is no longer tin foil hat material. It has been proven that the CDC, as an organization, seeks to conceal evidence of vaccine damage. The corruption goes straight to the top. I've pointed out all of the key players and the parts they played in this corruption.

This 'tin foil hat conspiracy' is now history.

You cannot extrapolate based on the evidence. In addition, the hypothesis linking thimerosol to autism has been disproved.

But no one can argue with what you feel. Only with your interpretation of data. You can feel any way you like.

 

[steveh_131]

You cannot extrapolate based on the evidence. In addition, the hypothesis linking thimerosol to autism has been disproved.

But no one can argue with what you feel. Only with your interpretation of data. You can feel any way you like.

None of this seems to make any sense or relate to the post that you quoted.

 

[Alpo]

You make a claim re: the CDC. That may or may not have anything to do with anti-depressants and autism links. I don't care to move backwards and rehash that which has been argued on INGO many many times.

The link to anti-depressants appears credible and is worth further study. The link to ethyl-mercury is trash.

 

[steveh_131]

You make a claim re: the CDC. That may or may not have anything to do with anti-depressants and autism links. I don't care to move backwards and rehash that which has been argued on INGO many many times.

The link to anti-depressants appears credible and is worth further study. The link to ethyl-mercury is trash.

Ok... you've kinda lost me. I don't disagree about the anti-depressants. Definitely needs more research. Nobody in this thread has even mentioned thimerasol that I know of, why are you bringing that up?

My CDC comment was a direct response to your accusing folks of being conspiracy nuts for questioning the establishment regarding vaccine dogma.

 

[Alpo]

OK. Understood, I think. Let's not pursue it.

 

[Cygnus]

Very true. I will and I already did.



I think there is risk associated with both vaccinating and not vaccinating. I think one side of that risk is overblown to the point of hysteria and the other side is minimized to the point of burying our heads in the sand. I wrote about the hysteria here.



I agree. I am not convinced that vaccines play a very significant role in autism.



I appreciate the links. I've read much of that material already, but there is always more to learn.

Unfortunately, the sources of much of that information has been thoroughly tainted. The CDC has been caught with their pants down, blatantly lying and covering up [destroying] information about possible links between vaccines and autism. Most of the attacks on Wakefield are absurd, including yours, which you would know if you had actually read the links I provided.

Again, I can't stress enough that I am really not on the 'vaccines cause autism' bandwagon. I lean more towards a combination of genetic components and environmental toxins as a large contributor. But there are real, tangible risks to vaccines and nobody in the industry or the government will be honest about them. And perhaps there are tangible benefits to them as well, but again, nobody in the industry or government will be realistic about those either. They want to hype the benefits and lie about the risks.

OK. I get you a little better now. Tell ya what I will even go with staggering the shots, especially if the kid catches a lot of colds , etc. That seems a reasoanble precaution.

 

[CountryBoy19]

More so.

But I think the a scientist sees that door is only the slightest bit ajar whereas others may imagine it to be half open. To the scientist, it's pointless, and even dangerous, to focus on shadow of a doubt. When people try and parse every little word, then saying, "There is no known connection" gives doubter and myth spreaders ammunition to carry on misguiding people.

I deal with this as an engineer - "well couldn't the problem be ..." or "can't we just ....", almost always the answer is no. Believe me, I thought about that possibility. After spending untold hours analyzing a problem, then having a boss come and second guess me and think he can solve the problem in 20 seconds is annoying, to say the least.

Is there times when something new is seen by the pointy haired boss? Yes, but it is few and far between. Do I know everything about my job? No, of course not. However, I know enough to do my job very competently. To try and use my ignorance as a reason to distrust me is foolish.

I try to never explicitly say, "trust me, I'm an engineer"; I'd rather let past performance do the talking. But, there's a point where you have to accept that someone knows more about a particular subject than you do and trust them. It seems the current trend is to distrust authority figures (doctors, scientist, lawyers, LEOs, etc.) as a default. I don't see that being a good practice.

For instance, if your doctor is right nine times out of ten, then you were wrong to distrust him nine times out of ten. But wait, I was right that tenth time! Sure you were and maybe you saved some time, needless procedures or something else. However, what was the cost for those other nine times to your health? Maybe you could have saved your amputated finger from gangrene if you just accepted the diagnosis the first time.


Same thing here. Sure, there might be a link, because you know, can't prove a negative. But, at what cost? Sort through this thread - there's details about the risks and consequences of avoiding vaccines.

There is a long history of distrust... Doctors are just as human as everyone else, some of them are more honest than others. After years of cover-ups, lies, and dishonesty how is the common man supposed to distinguish between the truth and the bullcrap? I think "we" have every right to cast doubt. Even if there is only a crack in the door, it's still a crack, still a possibility; so to deny that possibility is negligent.

Also, as a fellow engineer I understand your sentiments but lets think about this. In the engineering world it is MUCH easier to isolate variables and determine root-cause for XYZ occurrence. It's not so easy in the human body. First and foremost the human body is a living organism that also contains LOTS of other living organisms within. No 2 bodies are the same, even 2 cloned bodies would be different because the living organisms within would develop differently, the environmental factors/exposures would vary, lifestyle would vary. Machines don't have genetics and are mostly immune to chemical exposures etc; when they are exposed to damaging chemicals they often leave evidence. The human body can be exposed to numerous harmful chemicals and it doesn't leave a trace, but that doesn't mean damage wasn't done. Lifestyle factors can also play a role...

There is just no possible way to isolate and account for all of those variables, so the scientists and doctors do the best they can to isolate what they can, and they use systematical approaches to study and come to conclusions despite the factors/variables that couldn't be isolated.

In engineering we would call that half-assing it; but in the medical/bio-science world that's the best they have to work with. Unfortunately, it leaves the door a lot more open than when we do root-cause analysis in the engineering world.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I saw a guy in the ER the other day with Polio. His legs were twigs and he couldn't walk. For the past sixty years. I asked him his thoughts on vaccines... He had a few expletives for the modern "no vaccine" crowd. Diseases like polio are so damn awful and they have been erased from most of our lives. When you don't remember what something protects you from its easily to say it isn't needed.

 

[chezuki]

I saw a guy in the ER the other day with Polio. His legs were twigs and he couldn't walk. For the past sixty years. I asked him his thoughts on vaccines... He had a few expletives for the modern "no vaccine" crowd. Diseases like polio are so damn awful and they have been erased from most of our lives. When you don't remember what something protects you from its easily to say it isn't needed.

At least the poor guy doesn't have to walk around worrying about autism.

 

[churchmouse]

I saw a guy in the ER the other day with Polio. His legs were twigs and he couldn't walk. For the past sixty years. I asked him his thoughts on vaccines... He had a few expletives for the modern "no vaccine" crowd. Diseases like polio are so damn awful and they have been erased from most of our lives. When you don't remember what something protects you from its easily to say it isn't needed.

I am old enough to remember a few folks with Polio. I went to school with "2" kids that suffered.
Never see or hear of it anymore.

 

[historian]

I saw a guy in the ER the other day with Polio. His legs were twigs and he couldn't walk. For the past sixty years. I asked him his thoughts on vaccines... He had a few expletives for the modern "no vaccine" crowd. Diseases like polio are so damn awful and they have been erased from most of our lives. When you don't remember what something protects you from its easily to say it isn't needed.

I haven't know of anyone with measles. I'm not sure why Chicken Pox is so bad. Everyone I know got it and have a scar or two to prove it.

I am old enough to remember a few folks with Polio. I went to school with "2" kids that suffered.
Never see or hear of it anymore.

Had a friend who passed away about 10 years ago who had it. He didn't have it bad, but it took its toll later on in life.

 

[steveh_131]

Yes, bypass the reasoned discussion and tell a sad story.

Works well for the anti-gun crowd.

I've already addressed the polio vaccine here.

Since we're telling sad stories, has anyone here ever talked to the parents of a vaccine injured child with permanent brain damage and paralysis? They have a few things to say about the 'safe and effective' mantra.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

There is a long history of distrust... I think "we" have every right to cast doubt. Even if there is only a crack in the door, it's still a crack, still a possibility; so to deny that possibility is negligent.

If the discussion on global warming has taught me anything, it has taught me that it's perfectly acceptable to either fully support, or to fully discount scientific principles based on what I've heard on the radio or that I've read on the internet.

Why should the vaccine "controversy" be any different?

 

[CountryBoy19]

If the discussion on global warming has taught me anything, it has taught me that it's perfectly acceptable to either fully support, or to fully discount scientific principles based on what I've heard on the radio or that I've read on the internet.

Why should the vaccine "controversy" be any different?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying because I'm not sure where you stand on the issue, but why can't there be a middle ground? We shouldn't have to fully support or fully discount science. Can't we "support" but question it, or discount but agree there is some truth to it? So-on and so-forth...

FWIW, if you want to know my personal stance, I believe that there is some merit that there could be a link between the two, or possibly some other environmental factor that is yet unkown. I realize that link hasn't been discovered, but it doesn't mean it isn't there. In my book the "evidence" supporting the vaccines are dangerous position does not outweigh the evidence supporting the lives that can be saved by vaccines; I vaccinate my children. But I do so realizing that there are, indeed some known risks, and some unknown risks in doing so. There is a risk of not vaccinating... I am not educated nor smart enough to fully know and understand which bears more risk, I am making an educated judgment call on behalf of my children.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying because I'm not sure where you stand on the issue, but why can't there be a middle ground? We shouldn't have to fully support or fully discount science. Can't we "support" but question it, or discount but agree there is some truth to it? So-on and so-forth...

FWIW, if you want to know my personal stance, I believe that there is some merit that there could be a link between the two, or possibly some other environmental factor that is yet unkown. I realize that link hasn't been discovered, but it doesn't mean it isn't there. In my book the "evidence" supporting the vaccines are dangerous position does not outweigh the evidence supporting the lives that can be saved by vaccines; I vaccinate my children. But I do so realizing that there are, indeed some known risks, and some unknown risks in doing so. There is a risk of not vaccinating... I am not educated nor smart enough to fully know and understand which bears more risk, I am making an educated judgment call on behalf of my children.

I agree, and I've always respected your opinion on INGO. I was just making more of a (kind of poorly worded) statement about the politicization of both issues more than anything. And the fact that many seem to have really passionate feelings about both while not really knowing all that much about the science of either.

And, the big thing is that there is way too much money to be made or not made for me to believe that a lot of what I read or hear about either issue is not influenced by that.

 

[ruger1800]

Antidepressants in Pregnancy Tied to Autism - Scientific American

 

[17 squirrel]

I saw a guy in the ER the other day with Polio. His legs were twigs and he couldn't walk. For the past sixty years. I asked him his thoughts on vaccines... He had a few expletives for the modern "no vaccine" crowd. Diseases like polio are so damn awful and they have been erased from most of our lives. When you don't remember what something protects you from its easily to say it isn't needed.

I am old enough to remember a few folks with Polio. I went to school with "2" kids that suffered.
Never see or hear of it anymore.

Yep me to. I had 3 in school I grew up with..and one is a cousin of mine.
And one teacher in HS that have polio.
I'm one of 5 kids and my birth mother is a carrier of CMT .. We were lucky only my younger brother has it. And even though he has the most F'd up feet with claw toes and is bowlegged like a cowboy wearing a pair of Kiss Boots. His ass is up every morning going to work and gets done what needs to be done and has never shunned anything to the best of my knowledge.

 

[rhino]

I got my flu shot yesterday.

Now we wait . . .

 

[hopper68]

I got my flu shot yesterday.

Now we wait . . .

I heard you were a different shade of purple, now we know what happened.

 

[rhino]

I heard you were a different shade of purple, now we know what happened.

I didn't get the shot down th . . . uh . . . as you were. Nothing to see here. Return to your homes.