USAF Airman Killed in Wrong Address Police Incident

[AndreusMaximus]

Why is this still being repeated?

As I see it, there is still some ambiguity on whether or not it was, in fact, the wrong apartment.

In his press conference, the sheriff stated that the body cam footage would prove that it was not the wrong address. What the body cam did show, is that the deputy went to the correct apartment, in that he went the apartment number that the lady he talked with gave him.

However, did the lady give the police the wrong apartment number? The lady seemed rather unsure of herself, and there seems to be a strong possibility that the number she gave the deputy was not, in fact, the apartment from which the originally reported disturbance originated. I think this is why people keep saying it was the "wrong" apartment, because they don't think the police were given the correct apartment number. I don't think I've seen evidence yet to indicate one way or another on that, though.

 

[Creedmoor]

No, I've never been to his house. I don't really don't hang at anyone's house

So you don't have or "swing" by those with an upside down pineapple on the front door or porch?

 

[DadSmith]

Now what would you all do in this situation?

In Florida the AF member opens the door with firearm in hand the officer reacted like those in this video.
I've seen via this channel many officer shooting like that. Firearm not being pointed, but in hand.
I've also seen people point a firearm at an officer and the officer still tried to talk them down before shooting them. That one I can't figure out why other than the officer just doesn't want to shoot someone.

I answer my door with a firearm especially at night when I'm not expecting anyone. I do however hold the firearm behind the door just for this reason.

Be smart people.

Is this a bad shoot?
Did he tell him to drop the gun?
In what I've seen in many other videos it seems consistent with other officer involved shootings.

Wrong apartment and killing an innocent that's bad.
Did this man have a right to answer the door armed in his own home? Yes he did.

So what is right and what is wrong? How can this be prevented in the future?

What are the suggestions by our local officers for us INGO members to do if this situation arises for us? As in answering the door armed.

I'm deaf and if an officer said they were officers I wouldn't hear them. My dog alerts me to someone at my door. I do look out the window before answering. If I see a sheriff or state police car I put my gun down on cabinet behind door. However they could easily park elsewhere on property and I could not see who it is.
As I stated I answer with my firearm behind the door so it's not seen. Would that be the answer? If it is bad guy or guys you won't have much time to react so it has to be ready in a split second.

 

[Denny347]

Now what would you all do in this situation?

In Florida the AF member opens the door with firearm in hand the officer reacted like those in this video.
I've seen via this channel many officer shooting like that. Firearm not being pointed, but in hand.
I've also seen people point a firearm at an officer and the officer still tried to talk them down before shooting them. That one I can't figure out why other than the officer just doesn't want to shoot someone.

I answer my door with a firearm especially at night when I'm not expecting anyone. I do however hold the firearm behind the door just for this reason.

Be smart people.

Is this a bad shoot?
Did he tell him to drop the gun?
In what I've seen in many other videos it seems consistent with other officer involved shootings.

Wrong apartment and killing an innocent that's bad.
Did this man have a right to answer the door armed in his own home? Yes he did.

So what is right and what is wrong? How can this be prevented in the future?

What are the suggestions by our local officers for us INGO members to do if this situation arises for us? As in answering the door armed.

I'm deaf and if an officer said they were officers I wouldn't hear them. My dog alerts me to someone at my door. I do look out the window before answering. If I see a sheriff or state police car I put my gun down on cabinet behind door. However they could easily park elsewhere on property and I could not see who it is.
As I stated I answer with my firearm behind the door so it's not seen. Would that be the answer? If it is bad guy or guys you won't have much time to react so it has to be ready in a split second.

I don't know what got the officers to show up in the first place but it seemed like they believed him to be armed as soon as they pulled up. You do NOT have to wait until the gun is pointed at you. In fact, if you do, you will not get a shot off before they raise up the gun and fire first (actions ALWAYS beats reaction). I'm not saying that always shooting a person who is holding a gun at their side is justified, but it won't take much more that that to equal PC for deadly force. As seen here, they gave clear, concise instructions to drop the gun, lots of obvious warnings. It was clear he was hearing the instructions but ignored them. The blatant disregard of those warnings by drawing his handgun would be PC for an imminent attack on the officers.

 

[miguel]

Yeah, because no police officer has ever lost their life saving/attempting to save another person.

You are correct, they have made the ultimate sacrifice in many, countless cases and are generally underappreciated. I can't / won't dispute that and am sorry if my comment came across as disrespectful to you or the profession. I'm aware of how difficult recruiting is right now for most agencies and that is a damn shame both for the societal role we ask LEOs to fill (which is maybe part of the problem?) and for the communities that NEED good officers who would make that sacrifice in the awful circumstance they might need to...versus someone who just wants to kick doors in and knock heads together. And saying that I understand that dealing with the low life, repeat offender, scum bags you guys have to on a daily basis requires a mentality other than that of a choir boy.

My comment was meant to express my personal opinion that in my interactions with people in both roles, it appears fire fighters, who are certainly under a different form of stress than LEOs, have brought up their personal safety less often. Small sample in Miguel World and I admit I am not doing department-by-department doing surveys and aggregating their replies.

It is probably true that fire fighters don't have to worry about being shot at or getting into a physical altercation when responding to a call. Dying when a floor or roof collapses certainly is a different end than going hand-to-hand in an alley with some guy on drugs who has nothing to lose. I can see how that would change someone's approach to their job and general outlook on life.

 

[Denny347]

it appears fire fighters, who are certainly under a different form of stress than LEOs, have brought up their personal safety less often.

Bring it up to whom? Do they tell the Grand Jury? The Judge? The lawyers? Oh right, they don't have to "justify" their actions to ANYONE outside their small circle.

 

[Creedmoor]

I don't know what got the officers to show up in the first place but it seemed like they believed him to be armed as soon as they pulled up. You do NOT have to wait until the gun is pointed at you. In fact, if you do, you will not get a shot off before they raise up the gun and fire first (actions ALWAYS beats reaction). I'm not saying that always shooting a person who is holding a gun at their side is justified, but it won't take much more that that to equal PC for deadly force. As seen here, they gave clear, concise instructions to drop the gun, lots of obvious warnings. It was clear he was hearing the instructions but ignored them. The blatant disregard of those warnings by drawing his handgun would be PC for an imminent attack on the officers.

How does one drop a handgun that is in a coat pocket without pulling it out of the pocket? Its not like he was being told to take the jacket off and drop it on the ground.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

That one fault caused an innocent man to be killed, non-intentional but still.

Intentions and motivations are very important when attempting to judge a situation. Yes someone is dead, but this officer loosing his cool in a tense situation is very different to him planning on shooting up the next kid he sees. These situations are not black and white, and we shouldn't revert to eye-for-an-eye justice when it's not warranted. This was a split second decision, and people typically don't act rationally in those situations, even a lot of trained professionals.

Now with that being said, do not mistake my post or the previous for me suggesting this officer to get a slap on the wrist, nor do I believe we should throw the heaviest book at him either. I still view this as tragic where simple restraint and a command would have completely changed the outcome. If anything, this department should be under investigation for how they train their officers, as now we have two incidents where officers lost their cool and opened fired within a short time, even though the acorn one is in a different league than this one. It's as if they are teaching them to shoot first and ask questions later, I don't know.

If that was you or I that shot the policeman beacuse we were not certain, where would we be?

In jail with the heaviest book thrown at us, and yes I really detest the double standard there. Attacking a uniformed officer in public is one thing, shooting at some random guy breaking your door down early in the morning is another. It's one of the reasons I've been vocally against no-knock raids. That split second thing I mentioned above can happen on both sides.

There was one story a while ago where a couple of undercover officers broke down a suspected couple's door and raided their house. The couple were suspected, and guilty, of selling meth. Anyways, as they entered, the husband shot three of them with a .44 before getting lit up himself. He as well as one of the officers didn't survive, however I'd imagine they would try to book him with capital murder if the husband did survive. That would clearly be a load of BS as there was no way to tell that these officers were actually police.

 

[Ziggidy]

Intentions and motivations are very important when attempting to judge a situation. Yes someone is dead, but this officer loosing his cool in a tense situation is very different to him planning on shooting up the next kid he sees. These situations are not black and white, and we shouldn't revert to eye-for-an-eye justice when it's not warranted. This was a split second decision, and people typically don't act rationally in those situations, even a lot of trained professionals.

I don't believe I said it should be an eye for an eye or even suggested it. I also stated I believe it was non-intentional.

If anything, this department should be under investigation for how they train their officers, as now we have two incidents where officers lost their cool and opened fired within a short time, even though the acorn one is in a different league than this one. It's as if they are teaching them to shoot first and ask questions later, I don't know.

Now this, I cannot disagree more. I have never been in a situation even close to this; that said, I know not to do that. Again, never been there or done that. Training is valuable in any profession. Doctors, lawyers, police, firefighters, teachers; however, one can never predict application results and all we can hope for is positive outcomes. The teacher/trainer in this case is not at fault. IMHO, this was an individual procedural outcome. People make mistakes and are held accountable for them.

Trying to pin something like this on the trainer is nothing more than a lack of individual responsibility, which is like cancer to the human body. "Not my fault, I was never trained enough"......don't even try to go there or support that ridiculous thought.

 

[Denny347]

How does one drop a handgun that is in a coat pocket without pulling it out of the pocket? Its not like he was being told to take the jacket off and drop it on the ground.

When you have officers pointing guns at you, you DON'T pull the gun out. How about empty hands in the air? He was gripping the gun in his pocket. You "drop it" by releasing your hold on the grip and letting it fall back into the pocket.

 

[Denny347]

Now this, I cannot disagree more. I have never been in a situation even close to this; that said, I know not to do that. Again, never been there or done that. Training is valuable in any profession. Doctors, lawyers, police, firefighters, teachers; however, one can never predict application results and all we can hope for is positive outcomes. The teacher/trainer in this case is not at fault. IMHO, this was an individual procedural outcome. People make mistakes and are held accountable for them.

Trying to pin something like this on the trainer is nothing more than a lack of individual responsibility, which is like cancer to the human body. "Not my fault, I was never trained enough"......don't even try to go there or support that ridiculous thought.

I see crappy officers making poor decisions and administrators retaining them, kicking it back to the academy as a "training issue".....I don't know how you "train" an officer to make better decisions. Willful disregard of rules/law cannot be "trained out".

 

[Creedmoor]

When you have officers pointing guns at you, you DON'T pull the gun out. How about empty hands in the air? He was gripping the gun in his pocket. You "drop it" by releasing your hold on the grip and letting it fall back into the pocket.

Ok, but, that's not how I took what they were screaming at him to do. And apparently the dead man was thinking the same thing.

Maybe it would have been better to scream at him to do what you said. To pull your hand out of your pocket and leave the gun in your pocket.

 

[Judamonster]

Backing off the throttle when someone is already ahead of you on the action curve is a great way to get killed. End of the day, police officers are not obligated to die for the sake of the person killing them.

They aren't obligated to kill people who are not committing a crime and are acting within their rights either.

 

[Denny347]

Ok, but, that's not how I took what they were screaming at him to do. And apparently the dead man was thinking the same thing.

Maybe it would have been better to scream at him to do what you said. To pull your hand out of your pocket and leave the gun in your pocket.

His vocalizations also didn't support his "sudden compliance". He was not doing a SINGLE thing the officers were telling him to do PRIOR to drawing the pistol. There was no reason to believe he had a sudden change of heart. The PC for imminent threat of SBI is pretty clear. Remember, PC is about a 30-35% probability of being correct (if you had to put a number on it).

 

[maxipum]

So are there going to be any retracted statements by the first several INGOers after watching the video, or is everyone still taking Ben Crump's word as gospel? It got quiet in here all the sudden.

Right back at you, looks like the dopey apartment manager may have sent the cop to THE WRONG ADDRESS. Victim was alone. Can we call him a victim now instead of a suspect?

 

[Creedmoor]

His vocalizations also didn't support his "sudden compliance". He was not doing a SINGLE thing the officers were telling him to do PRIOR to drawing the pistol. There was no reason to believe he had a sudden change of heart. The PC for imminent threat of SBI is pretty clear. Remember, PC is about a 30-35% probability of being correct (if you had to put a number on it).

I believe that's part of the problem in situation's like this, to many officers screaming different instructions with each of them telling him we are going to shoot you if you don't comply.
I don't believe he was "Drawing the pistol" The pistol was pointed down when he pulled it out of his pocket and stayed pointed down.
I didn't see a threat here.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I don't believe he was "Drawing the pistol" The pistol was pointed down when he pulled it out of his pocket and stayed pointed down.
I didn't see a threat here.

Dont confuse lack of commitment with lack of intent. Looks like most of the other MWAG/suicide by cop videos Ive seen. They seldom go straight to pointing. Just like somebody committing suicide typically doesnt just do it. They have to build up the courage.

 

[Creedmoor]

Dont confuse lack of commitment with lack of intent. Looks like most of the other MWAG/suicide by cop videos Ive seen. They seldom go straight to pointing. Just like somebody committing suicide typically doesnt just do it. They have to build up the courage.

I'm not confusing anything here, I have a problem with shooting citizens with a firearm that's pointed down, and more so with the final "coup de gras" the last shot.
Both suicides that I have witnessed, they both just did it.
One was a man that jumped off the construction elevator tower when the old Blocks Dept Store building was being rehabbed in the early 90's. We watched him swan dive onto Market or Illinois st.
The other was a co worker.
Neither of these men had any reservations with doing it.

 

[ECS686]

I didn’t read all 7 pages but I have seen enough theory and conjecture on both sides. Either folks that have never been in an incident or in the LE side believes they wear a cape! So I’ll just say this as someone that has been in crisis situations and have trained LEOs AND have taken a lot of additional classes with folks like Darryle Bolke Spaulding Hearne and many more

The whole atmosphere of LE training is what failed the deputy and the SRA. Like the Deputy in Houston there is nothing illegal about having a handgun in your hand in your own house.

In fact when I have some LEOs “boast” about pointing their firearm at someone for some BS property crime something’s wrong. We all have done stuff like that back in the day but we were wrong and enough cops shot enough people they shouldn’t have we learned that we probably should do that!

This whole gun= 100% threat has made LE (or some) trigger happy

And as Chuck Haggard says LE training needs a hard reset. Very very few departments put any range time with or practice of Cognative decision making on reading threats. It draw and fire the prescribed number of rounds BEEP. No visual decision making starts or not start. In this case it sounded like the Officer drew and shot the SRA in what had to be that sub second draw.
There is a lot to say when folks are so proficient that they know when not to shoot. There is also an issue that LEOs are so scared by administration or getting out on blast that they refuse to go hands on. Many many bad or questionable shootings would have never went that far if a proper (and legal) amount of physical force was used early in it wouldn’t have escalated to a shooting.

if that is in fact the case the Deputy went from a holstered gun to shooting him that fast there’s an issue more than likely gun=bad mentality so training entrains folks to think “I’m behind the power curve have to draw and shoot like the range” And that was for a guy that was pointing his gun downward at bootleg ready and saw and acknowledged the Officer with his left hand up in surrender. To me it appeared the SRA just registered (that OODA loop everyone wants to throw out there works both ways) had the Officer drawn to low ready to asses a second longer I’d say the STA would have dropped the gun (and I’m sure enough I’d change spots with that Deputy )

So that said The better alternative (and has been proven out by the force science institute) officers in a low ready can assess and don’t shoot people they probably don’t have to shoot from the low ready. The ones that want to point their guns at everyone (violating rule 2) because well “we are cops and have a cape and can etc” Do shoot the wrong people.

So until the emphasis is to revamp trainjng that no everyone with a gun is bad and start doing some Cognative decision making with. It only qualifications (which is usually once a year) but monthly you’re going to have these shootings that turn into utter abortions!!!

In this case the Agency set the Deputy (and apparently others as the A corn guy) and ultimately cost a family and the nation their lives one and service member so the agency will wright the check and say they will change stuf and it will quietly go back to what agencies do keep their inadequate training empires and promote the most inept folks to be in charge of training

And in a month there will be another one like this one or Houston come up and everyone will act surprised!

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'm not confusing anything here, I have a problem with shooting citizens with a firearm that's pointed down, and more so with the final "coup de gras" the last shot.
Both suicides that I have witnessed, they both just did it.
One was a man that jumped off the construction elevator tower when the old Blocks Dept Store building was being rehabbed in the early 90's. We watched him swan dive onto Market or Illinois st.
The other was a co worker.
Neither of these men had any reservations with doing it.

We will probably just have to agree to disagree.

So guy laying on the ground injured badly, raises the gun. What do you think he is going to do(or at least try) ? Not rhetorical.

EDIT: This is in regards to post #123