USAF Airman Killed in Wrong Address Police Incident

[KLB]

In certain situations, unholstered gun in hand, yes... for example, some rando banging on your door, you open the door and they have a handgun in their hand? Are you saying that is no threat until they point it at you?

Another situation, someone trespassing on my private hunting land... OC handgun on hip is NOT the same as gun in hand.

What does any of that have to do with this situation? Someone bangs on your door. Guy grabs a gun and opens the door to see who is there. You think that gives the officer that banged on the door and hid from view the right to shoot.

Why do you say that? Same OODA loop... gun at the ready, recognizing a LEO and lowering it. IMO, entirely possible... and as you say, eminently important.

Huh? Same OODA loop for whom? You think the airman opened the door pointing his gun, recognized the officer, and lowered the gun in a second? At the same time, the officer didn't notice the airman lower the gun and shot him.

You really seem invested in this officer.

 

[Frontiersman]

Here’s the previous acorn incident, for those that haven’t seen it.

I didn't hear anything even remotely sounding like gun fire. Then, we have to ask, what was he shooting at? And what a poor shot he must be to not hit whatever it was. Not suited for police work.

 

[firecadet613]

What does any of that have to do with this situation? Someone bangs on your door. Guy grabs a gun and opens the door to see who is there. You think that gives the officer that banged on the door and hid from view the right to shoot.

Why open the door?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I never saw the airman at anytime have the gun up.

I went back to the badge cam video... when the Airman opens the door, we, through the camera, cannot see him, nor his hand, nor the gun... It could be anywhere, in any orientation. The cam cannot see what the deputy saw.

So, just to be clear, YOU NOR I have any idea where the gun was pointing when he opened the door.

If he had it in a low ready, pointing forward, was the deputy reasonable in deadly UoF?

Also, the Airman opened the door between 2-3 seconds after the deputy banged loudly and again announced "Sheriff's office, open the door!"... so IMA call BS on he didn't know the person at his door was announcing themselves as LEO.

Also, it was a DV call, the deputy first went to the apartment manager's office, she wasn't there... but met him in the parking lot, described yelling, shouting and slapping... and clearly says unit 1401. The deputy went to 1401.

That said the airman was there with the gun down at the floor relaxed for a moment with his other hand up, the only OODA loop was when the LEO recognized the gun LEO immediately (as in sub 1 second) drew and fired.
Only after assessing the kid on the ground did he yell “drop the gun”

This wasn’t a homicide or anything but I watched a U.S. Attorney refuse to charge an inmate for a “staff assault” in a federal prison. The middle of then day rink it was loud the Officer (who was a knucklehead anyway) slapped the inmate in the shoulder to get his attention (Officers statement when he regained consciousness) the inmate reacted turning and striking the officer one time in the neck head area (video was like dang the dude had some power for a short punch)

Officer was laid out I ate stood there was like WTF hands up said he didn’t know it was a staff member.

USA basically said the inmate was no different than a resident in their house and he didn’t see the staff member and (all on video) the force of the staff member slapping him it was within reason for the inmate to believe he was under attack by another inmate.

Making decisions as an LEO sucks sometimes but your stepping out into it when you start shootings folks in their own homes and just because they have a gun the “what are they doing with it” is a BIG factor if your right your a hero if your wrong well there’s probably jail time and or civil lawsuit.

True.

What does any of that have to do with this situation?

Your question was does a gun IN HAND by itself indicate a reasonable threat to life and limb... and IMO it really depends upon the situation... and those situations, sure.

Someone bangs on your door. Guy grabs a gun and opens the door to see who is there. You think that gives the officer that banged on the door and hid from view the right to shoot.

Officer bangs on a door and clearly announces himself multiple times. Guy at a DV call location opens his door with a gun in his hand 2-3 seconds after a loud knock and yelled "Open the door, Sheriff's Office"... at what point is he reasonably a deadly threat? When he points the gun at the cop? When he fires the gun at the cop?

Huh? Same OODA loop for whom? You think the airman opened the door pointing his gun, recognized the officer, and lowered the gun in a second?

I went back and re-looked at the badge-cam, door open to shots fired is close to 3 seconds... for 2.5 of that three seconds you cannot see the Airman's arm/hand or the gun as it's obscured by either the door frame or the officer's arm as he's drawing. Only a fraction of a second before firing do you see the Airman with his right hand and gun pointing down and his left hand come up.

NEITHER YOU NOR I can say where that gun was pointing when the door opened and while the deputy was drawing his firearm... only that is was pointing down a tenth to a quarter of a second prior to the first shot.

At the same time, the officer didn't notice the airman lower the gun and shot him.

Two things... one is the OODA based upon 1-2 seconds ago... two is at that distance his draw would likely obscure the Airman's lower body.

You really seem invested in this officer.

Mostly trying to figure out the thought process of some on here... someone banging on your (the general you) shouting that they are the police and you open the door with a gun in your hand?

And, like I said above, he opened the door between 2-3 seconds after the deputy banged and loudly announced "Sheriff's office, open the door".

Does “loudly announced”=the person in the apartment heard the announcement ?

When the dude opens the door 2-3 seconds following said loud banging and yelling "Sheriff's office, open the door!"... yeah, IMO, it does.

 

[ECS686]

I went back to the badge cam video... when the Airman opens the door, we, through the camera, cannot see him, nor his hand, nor the gun... It could be anywhere, in any orientation. The cam cannot see what the deputy saw.

So, just to be clear, YOU NOR I have any idea where the gun was pointing when he opened the door.

If he had it in a low ready, pointing forward, was the deputy reasonable in deadly UoF?

Also, the Airman opened the door between 2-3 seconds after the deputy banged loudly and again announced "Sheriff's office, open the door!"... so IMA call BS on he didn't know the person at his door was announcing themselves as LEO.

Also, it was a DV call, the deputy first went to the apartment manager's office, she wasn't there... but met him in the parking lot, described yelling, shouting and slapping... and clearly says unit 1401. The deputy went to 1401.




True.

Your question was does a gun IN HAND by itself indicate a reasonable threat to life and limb... and IMO it really depends upon the situation... and those situations, sure.


Officer bangs on a door and clearly announces himself multiple times. Guy at a DV call location opens his door with a gun in his hand 2-3 seconds after a loud knock and yelled "Open the door, Sheriff's Office"... at what point is he reasonably a deadly threat? When he points the gun at the cop? When he fires the gun at the cop?


I went back and re-looked at the badge-cam, door open to shots fired is close to 3 seconds... for 2.5 of that three seconds you cannot see the Airman's arm/hand or the gun as it's obscured by either the door frame or the officer's arm as he's drawing. Only a fraction of a second before firing do you see the Airman with his right hand and gun pointing down and his left hand come up.

NEITHER YOU NOR I can say where that gun was pointing when the door opened and while the deputy was drawing his firearm... only that is was pointing down a tenth to a quarter of a second prior to the first shot.


Two things... one is the OODA based upon 1-2 seconds ago... two is at that distance his draw would likely obscure the Airman's lower body.


Mostly trying to figure out the thought process of some on here... someone banging on your (the general you) shouting that they are the police and you open the door with a gun in your hand?

And, like I said above, he opened the door between 2-3 seconds after the deputy banged and loudly announced "Sheriff's office, open the door".

When the dude opens the door 2-3 seconds following said loud banging and yelling "Sheriff's office, open the door!"... yeah, IMO, it does.

Reapectfully, While yes body cans don’t always catch everything an Officer sees due to angles etc. the big issue for me was if the Officer did in fact observe that 1 Why didn’t he seek cover immediately and retreat to a better position or 2 if the deputy saw the airman aiming somewhere in his direction but had time to “react to maybe draw and possibly engage” why didn’t he draw then? He waited until the gun was down.

So while we can presume different things I believe he was shot with the gun being held and the kid sort of backed up so to me that’s the issue that caused the GJ to recommend charges!

OODA works both ways and I say this as someone that has worked some kind of LE since 1986

We will see if it goes through a full trial nothing is absolute until he is convicted and his appeal is denied!

 

[maxipum]

I went back to the badge cam video... when the Airman opens the door, we, through the camera, cannot see him, nor his hand, nor the gun... It could be anywhere, in any orientation. The cam cannot see what the deputy saw.

So, just to be clear, YOU NOR I have any idea where the gun was pointing when he opened the door.

If he had it in a low ready, pointing forward, was the deputy reasonable in deadly UoF?

Also, the Airman opened the door between 2-3 seconds after the deputy banged loudly and again announced "Sheriff's office, open the door!"... so IMA call BS on he didn't know the person at his door was announcing themselves as LEO.

Also, it was a DV call, the deputy first went to the apartment manager's office, she wasn't there... but met him in the parking lot, described yelling, shouting and slapping... and clearly says unit 1401. The deputy went to 1401.




True.

Your question was does a gun IN HAND by itself indicate a reasonable threat to life and limb... and IMO it really depends upon the situation... and those situations, sure.


Officer bangs on a door and clearly announces himself multiple times. Guy at a DV call location opens his door with a gun in his hand 2-3 seconds after a loud knock and yelled "Open the door, Sheriff's Office"... at what point is he reasonably a deadly threat? When he points the gun at the cop? When he fires the gun at the cop?


I went back and re-looked at the badge-cam, door open to shots fired is close to 3 seconds... for 2.5 of that three seconds you cannot see the Airman's arm/hand or the gun as it's obscured by either the door frame or the officer's arm as he's drawing. Only a fraction of a second before firing do you see the Airman with his right hand and gun pointing down and his left hand come up.

NEITHER YOU NOR I can say where that gun was pointing when the door opened and while the deputy was drawing his firearm... only that is was pointing down a tenth to a quarter of a second prior to the first shot.


Two things... one is the OODA based upon 1-2 seconds ago... two is at that distance his draw would likely obscure the Airman's lower body.


Mostly trying to figure out the thought process of some on here... someone banging on your (the general you) shouting that they are the police and you open the door with a gun in your hand?

And, like I said above, he opened the door between 2-3 seconds after the deputy banged and loudly announced "Sheriff's office, open the door".

When the dude opens the door 2-3 seconds following said loud banging and yelling "Sheriff's office, open the door!"... yeah, IMO, it does.

After the officer shot and killed the airman I hope he was able to rescue the victim of all that yelling and slapping. Ohh wait you are saying there was no victim and all that BS was pulled out of someone’s a$$. Well nothing to see here move along just a good cop doing good cop work. If that were my son in that video the only safe place for officer tackleberry would be in jail.

 

[KLB]

Mostly trying to figure out the thought process of some on here... someone banging on your (the general you) shouting that they are the police and you open the door with a gun in your hand?

And, like I said above, he opened the door between 2-3 seconds after the deputy banged and loudly announced "Sheriff's office, open the door".

You really want to blame the airman.

I would do the same in that scenario. Someone saying they are an officer does not mean they are. Until I have visible confirmation, I am going to be armed.

He opened the door 2-3 seconds after the second round of knocking. He was most likely already on his way to the door. You have no idea if he heard the officer.

Officer bangs on a door and clearly announces himself multiple times. Guy at a DV call location opens his door with a gun in his hand 2-3 seconds after a loud knock and yelled "Open the door, Sheriff's Office"... at what point is he reasonably a deadly threat? When he points the gun at the cop? When he fires the gun at the cop?

There was no domestic violence at that location. Someone screwed up sending the officer there.

He becomes a threat when he does something threatening. That's pretty simple. This is the first frame you can see the airman. Show me the threat.


In the end, a citizen breaking no laws, threatening no one was killed by an officer 3 seconds after opening his door carrying a gun he had every right to be carrying. You want to excuse the officer. I think he deserves to have a trial and let the facts be weighed.

And according to the administrative review, the deputy saw the gun pointed down the whole time.

Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office Releases Administrative Internal Affairs Investigation into the Fatal Deputy-Involved Shooting of Roger Fortson | Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office

The objective facts as determined by the administrative investigation are:

• The former deputy was dispatched to an in-progress physical disturbance at an apartment complex located at 319 Racetrack Road NW. Dispatch records confirm the location of the disturbance was reported to be taking place in Unit 1401.
• On arrival at the apartment complex to which he was dispatched to, the former deputy met with an employee of the apartment complex who identified Unit 1401 as the location of the disturbance and relayed to the former deputy that there had been recent unreported disturbances at or around the same apartment.
• The former deputy’s interaction with the apartment complex’s employee and all further actions were recorded by his body-worn camera.
• Upon arriving at the door to Unit 1401, the former deputy listened for sounds of any disturbance inside the apartment. Hearing none, the former deputy knocked without announcing and listened for a response. When describing what he heard, the former deputy said he heard: “Something to the effect of it’s the f****** police.”
• The former deputy knocked loudly two more times and announced “Sheriff’s Office” both of those times. The administrative investigation found that the former deputy knocked three times and announced his presence two times within approximately 40 seconds.
• When Mr. Fortson opened the door, the former deputy stated he saw Mr. Fortson holding a firearm in his right hand. The firearm was pointed at the ground sufficiently enough for the former deputy to clearly see the rear face of the rear sight.
• The former deputy confirmed Mr. Fortson did not physically resist him in any way, and the investigation concluded that Mr. Forston did not point the gun in the former deputy’s direction.

 

[Denny347]

Ohh wait you are saying there was no victim and all that BS was pulled out of someone’s a$$.

I finally watched the video and the 911 caller is quite convincing and her statements were VERY actionable. Now, after the fact, it seemed she was incorrect. But the Deputy had no way of knowing that. I'm not excusing the PAS but the deputies were 100% legal in investigating the call and knocking on that door.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Reapectfully, While yes body cans don’t always catch everything an Officer sees due to angles etc. the big issue for me was if the Officer did in fact observe that 1 Why didn’t he seek cover immediately and retreat to a better position or

He had no where to go... he was left of the door between the door and a stairwell rail.

2 if the deputy saw the airman aiming somewhere in his direction but had time to “react to maybe draw and possibly engage” why didn’t he draw then?

There's maybe 3 seconds between the door opening and first shot. (just watching the YT time, nothing fancy)

He waited until the gun was down.

We have no idea where the gun was pointed until a fraction of a second prior to the shot. It could have been down the whole time, it could have been pointed at him when the door opened and he started his draw. We really don't know as it's not in frame.

So while we can presume different things I believe he was shot with the gun being held and the kid sort of backed up so to me that’s the issue that caused the GJ to recommend charges!

Could be it was pointed down the whole time, and he opened to door to an announced LEO knock with a gun in his hand.

Not sure where you saw the kid backed up, I just saw his left hand come up a tenth or two of a second prior to the shot.

OODA works both ways and I say this as someone that has worked some kind of LE since 1986

Right... so it's entirely possible, but unknown, that the kids opened the door with the gun in low ready, SAW A COP and lowered the handgun in the same OODA loop time the deputy saw a gun pointed at him and drew to fire.

We will see if it goes through a full trial nothing is absolute until he is convicted and his appeal is denied!

True... I'll still say if you have LEO banging on your door, it's a bad idea to answer the door with a gun in your hand... you'll likely get smoked.

After the officer shot and killed the airman I hope he was able to rescue the victim of all that yelling and slapping. Ohh wait you are saying there was no victim and all that BS was pulled out of someone’s a$$. Well nothing to see here move along just a good cop doing good cop work. If that were my son in that video the only safe place for officer tackleberry would be in jail.

I'll say again, if you have LEO banging on your door, it's a bad idea to answer the door with a gun in your hand... you'll likely get smoked.

You really want to blame the airman.

I would do the same in that scenario. Someone saying they are an officer does not mean they are. Until I have visible confirmation, I am going to be armed.

I'll say again, if you have LEO banging on your door, it's a bad idea to answer the door with a gun in your hand... you'll likely get smoked.

Definitely a good use case for a doorbell camera... among many others, especially if it is not the actual police.

He opened the door 2-3 seconds after the second round of knocking. He was most likely already on his way to the door. You have no idea if he heard the officer.

THIRD round of knocking, second round of announcing himself loudly. You're very much discounting the officer's statement that he heard something to tune of "It's the f***ing police." through the door.

There was no domestic violence at that location. Someone screwed up sending the officer there.

And the officer is supposed to know this how? He was there in good faith and when to the apartment he was directed to...

He becomes a threat when he does something threatening. That's pretty simple. This is the first frame you can see the airman. Show me the threat.
View attachment 375851

That is like a tenth of a second prior to the shot breaking... show me the approximately 2.5 seconds prior to that when the deputies OODA loop started.

In the end, a citizen breaking no laws, threatening no one was killed by an officer 3 seconds after opening his door carrying a gun he had every right to be carrying.

Yup, I agree with all of that.

You want to excuse the officer.

Nope, I think given the totality of what we know, and what the deputy knew as he stood at the door, he would be in reasonable fear for his life when the airman opened the door with a gun in his hand.

I think he deserves to have a trial and let the facts be weighed.

Sure...

And according to the administrative review, the deputy saw the gun pointed down the whole time.

Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office Releases Administrative Internal Affairs Investigation into the Fatal Deputy-Involved Shooting of Roger Fortson | Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office

That's not what he said... we don't know what he actually said... is this the same as by his side, pointed straight down? No...

When Mr. Fortson opened the door, the former deputy stated he saw Mr. Fortson holding a firearm in his right hand. The firearm was pointed at the ground sufficiently enough for the former deputy to clearly see the rear face of the rear sight.

At a distance of several feet, this could be low ready... was it also sufficiently raised that he could see the business end of the barrel?

Here's some more administrative speak for you...

and the investigation concluded that Mr. Forston did not point the gun in the former deputy’s direction.

If the deputy stated that the gun was never pointed in his direction and was at the Airman's side the whole time (2.5 seconds), pointing straight down, the report would have attributed that statement and that position of the gun to the deputy. It doesn't... which tells me the deputy said something else

 

[ECS686]

He had no where to go... he was left of the door between the door and a stairwell rail.


There's maybe 3 seconds between the door opening and first shot. (just watching the YT time, nothing fancy)



We have no idea where the gun was pointed until a fraction of a second prior to the shot. It could have been down the whole time, it could have been pointed at him when the door opened and he started his draw. We really don't know as it's not in frame.


Could be it was pointed down the whole time, and he opened to door to an announced LEO knock with a gun in his hand.

Not sure where you saw the kid backed up, I just saw his left hand come up a tenth or two of a second prior to the shot.


Right... so it's entirely possible, but unknown, that the kids opened the door with the gun in low ready, SAW A COP and lowered the handgun in the same OODA loop time the deputy saw a gun pointed at him and drew to fire.


True... I'll still say if you have LEO banging on your door, it's a bad idea to answer the door with a gun in your hand... you'll likely get smoked.


I'll say again, if you have LEO banging on your door, it's a bad idea to answer the door with a gun in your hand... you'll likely get smoked.


I'll say again, if you have LEO banging on your door, it's a bad idea to answer the door with a gun in your hand... you'll likely get smoked.

Definitely a good use case for a doorbell camera... among many others, especially if it is not the actual police.


THIRD round of knocking, second round of announcing himself loudly. You're very much discounting the officer's statement that he heard something to tune of "It's the f***ing police." through the door.


And the officer is supposed to know this how? He was there in good faith and when to the apartment he was directed to...


That is like a tenth of a second prior to the shot breaking... show me the approximately 2.5 seconds prior to that when the deputies OODA loop started.


Yup, I agree with all of that.



Nope, I think given the totality of what we know, and what the deputy knew as he stood at the door, he would be in reasonable fear for his life when the airman opened the door with a gun in his hand.


Sure...


That's not what he said... we don't know what he actually said... is this the same as by his side, pointed straight down? No...


At a distance of several feet, this could be low ready... was it also sufficiently raised that he could see the business end of the barrel?

Here's some more administrative speak for you...



If the deputy stated that the gun was never pointed in his direction and was at the Airman's side the whole time (2.5 seconds), pointing straight down, the report would have attributed that statement and that position of the gun to the deputy. It doesn't... which tells me the deputy said something else

Just curious. Do you have a Punisher sticker on Your truck or any firearms and or and thin blue line stuff anywhere?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Just curious. Do you have a Punisher sticker on Your truck or any firearms and or and thin blue line stuff anywhere?

Nope, no FAFO signs either... lol!

Really just trying to figure out the thinking on this one... as best I can understand, a LEO going to a DV call, after clearly and multiple times announcing themselves, is supposed to wait for "something threatening" when a dude opens the door with a gun in his hand.

FWIW, ASP mirrored the thinking here, but somehow indicated the cop that shot the woman in the face over a boiling pot of water might have a reasonable defense.

Did I go crazy or is up down and vice versa now?

 

[KLB]

At a distance of several feet, this could be low ready... was it also sufficiently raised that he could see the business end of the barrel?

Here's some more administrative speak for you.

clearly see the rear face of the rear sight.

You can see the rear face of the rear site when the gun is at low ready?

If the deputy stated that the gun was never pointed in his direction and was at the Airman's side the whole time (2.5 seconds), pointing straight down, the report would have attributed that statement and that position of the gun to the deputy. It doesn't... which tells me the deputy said something else

And now you think the department just fired him for no cause.

Here are the deputy's words right from the report. The link was on the earlier link I posted.

https://www.sheriff-okaloosa.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/IA-2024-012-Final-Report-002-1.pdf

I asked Deputy Duran what he thought when he saw Mr. Fortson’s firearm. He said, “So,initially when I see the firearm, uh, the elbow, his hand and the elbow are slightly canted,meaning not straight down. It is in a manner so that his arm is slightly up. Um, so whenI see the gun, I immediately see the grip that he has on it, which is standard pistol grip.Um, I see the back part of the sites, which of course dovetail sites have on specific guns,have a white u-shaped line on the back of the gun. … Glock … So, then I see that, andthen I see immediately there is a red or optic,

Frame of mind. He saw "aggression".

o I asked him to explain what made him believe he saw aggression. He explained,“When I looked at him and he made eye contact or I made eye contact with him, itwas a stare that was fixated 100% on me. Um, which as I'm looking at him, itwasn't eyebrows raised, hey, what's going on, inquisitive, why are you here? Itwas a stare. Not so much a, like I said, inquisitive look. Um, so that showed me,there was aggression. That showed me that there was obviously is a little bit ofdiscontent for me knocking on the door.”

 

[DoggyDaddy]

You can see the rear face of the rear site when the gun is at low ready?

And now you think the department just fired him for no cause.

Here are the deputy's words right from the report. The link was on the earlier link I posted.

https://www.sheriff-okaloosa.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/IA-2024-012-Final-Report-002-1.pdf

Frame of mind. He saw "aggression".

"That showed me that there was obviously is a little bit of discontent for me knocking on the door.”

Wait, so you don't shoot people that look discontent? Me? I kill everyone that doesn't smile at me.

 

[KLB]

"That showed me that there was obviously is a little bit of discontent for me knocking on the door.”

Wait, so you don't shoot people that look discontent? Me? I kill everyone that doesn't smile at me.

Reading the whole interview, it sounds like he had convinced himself that there was a violent scene and he was going to the rescue.

 

[ECS686]

Nope, no FAFO signs either... lol!

Really just trying to figure out the thinking on this one... as best I can understand, a LEO going to a DV call, after clearly and multiple times announcing themselves, is supposed to wait for "something threatening" when a dude opens the door with a gun in his hand.

FWIW, ASP mirrored the thinking here, but somehow indicated the cop that shot the woman in the face over a boiling pot of water might have a reasonable defense.

Did I go crazy or is up down and vice versa now?

I won’t ever say I’m an expert as Dave Spaulding said in a class I was in Ex is a has been and Spurt is well make your own thought!

That said both the cop with the airman and the Illinois were way out of their lane. I also say this as someone that has had guns pointed at me fought over my own gun and have had a few incidents where I could have shot but choose not to.

I am also of an age where de escalation involved a smack on the suspects melon with a baton or a 4 cell maglight!

I have been mirandized by DOJ OIG so I have been in the hot seat so I feel I can have a pretty good “way it is” view

All that said what trends I have noticed is a coupon and the Illinois cop with the boiling water is in problem trend 1. Dudes that can’t stay with a department and are asked to leave because they can’t last through FTO or think police work is arresting everybody that’s drunk or says a potty word at you. They are usually hot headed and demand hero like worship and are in 10 times the use of force events because they escalate it.

Teen 2 is what I put this shooting with the airman Trainjng fails this dude. I mentioned it earlier but LE training has become so watered down no Cognative decision making with firearms are taught. They never improve over a state qual with smaller targets like B8’s or 3x5 playing cards.

I train with and am friends with some national level trainers and just at the Revolver round up one that taught at who trained on B8’s and 3x5 etc he told me his last shooting the guy was facing and turned sideways so his target area didn’t ever get smaller one round cross torso stopping him.

That’s not the case on a LOT of police shootings on body cam. They have turned into utter shooting abortions with horrible crisis management and mag dumps with a suspect hit if any o my once or twice.

Several agencies have completely got away from OC and Batons for Tazers and ASP which are horrible choices and fail a large amount of time.

I get the exposure because as a cop you have to take them in but part of it. And recently a here a “suspect matter expert” told me how wrong I was to suggest OC and one of my reasonings was vicious dogs. While you need to do something shooting and taxing isn’t always a great option. Then an Officer shot a dog and the Officer and Department went through the funny papers

Recruits today are almost implanted to fear guns instead of what someone is doing (like really doing) firearms training there is no force on force decision making training outside of check the box at an academy block.

That is also the negative to body cameras. People didn’t like that LEOs went hands on and they thought it looked bad. What nobody is mentioning is those hands on was de escalation and kept the scene from getting into a shooting (the airman case was different but I am referring to general street contacts with subjects outside in public that go south and is a shooting when a smack on the melon or arm bar use to be on)

Cops don’t know how to physically fight anymore it’s taser or gun

While talking to several fellow Rangemater instructors at advance instructior training many that serve in LE feom La to NYC area in between have the same general consensus.

At some point in the next couple years you will se a LEO charged for pointing a gun at people they aren’t allowed to use deadly force with (The case with an Airman sort of goes along but they were referring to just pointing but shooting)

I did it and a lot of folks did we pointed guns at people for misdemeanor BS we really didn’t have to and we were wrong. Just some of us are better at crisis management and ones that are not are the police shoot people they shouldn’t. And for the naysayers if I am a cop in your town are you OK with me a or anyone pointing a loaded duty weapon at your loved one because of a minor misdemeanor as a means to control and modify behavior?
It should be no!

 

[SheepDog4Life]

You can see the rear face of the rear site when the gun is at low ready?

At three feet? Yeah...

And now you think the department just fired him for no cause.

Here are the deputy's words right from the report. The link was on the earlier link I posted.

https://www.sheriff-okaloosa.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/IA-2024-012-Final-Report-002-1.pdf

“So,initially when I see the firearm, uh, the elbow, his hand and the elbow are slightly canted,meaning not straight down. It is in a manner so that his arm is slightly up."

So, not straight down, by his side.

Frame of mind. He saw "aggression".

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Holy wall of text. (but kudos for breaking it up into paragraphs)

@ECS686 you may have the experience and training that you claim to have. But my God man that was painful to read.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

I won’t ever say I’m an expert as Dave Spaulding said in a class I was in Ex is a has been and Spurt is well make your own thought!

That said both the cop with the airman and the Illinois were way out of their lane. I also say this as someone that has had guns pointed at me fought over my own gun and have had a few incidents where I could have shot but choose not to.

I am also of an age where de escalation involved a smack on the suspects melon with a baton or a 4 cell maglight!

I have been mirandized by DOJ OIG so I have been in the hot seat so I feel I can have a pretty good “way it is” view

All that said what trends I have noticed is a coupon and the Illinois cop with the boiling water is in problem trend 1. Dudes that can’t stay with a department and are asked to leave because they can’t last through FTO or think police work is arresting everybody that’s drunk or says a potty word at you. They are usually hot headed and demand hero like worship and are in 10 times the use of force events because they escalate it.

Teen 2 is what I put this shooting with the airman Trainjng fails this dude. I mentioned it earlier but LE training has become so watered down no Cognative decision making with firearms are taught. They never improve over a state qual with smaller targets like B8’s or 3x5 playing cards.

I train with and am friends with some national level trainers and just at the Revolver round up one that taught at who trained on B8’s and 3x5 etc he told me his last shooting the guy was facing and turned sideways so his target area didn’t ever get smaller one round cross torso stopping him.

That’s not the case on a LOT of police shootings on body cam. They have turned into utter shooting abortions with horrible crisis management and mag dumps with a suspect hit if any o my once or twice.

Several agencies have completely got away from OC and Batons for Tazers and ASP which are horrible choices and fail a large amount of time.

I get the exposure because as a cop you have to take them in but part of it. And recently a here a “suspect matter expert” told me how wrong I was to suggest OC and one of my reasonings was vicious dogs. While you need to do something shooting and taxing isn’t always a great option. Then an Officer shot a dog and the Officer and Department went through the funny papers

Recruits today are almost implanted to fear guns instead of what someone is doing (like really doing) firearms training there is no force on force decision making training outside of check the box at an academy block.

That is also the negative to body cameras. People didn’t like that LEOs went hands on and they thought it looked bad. What nobody is mentioning is those hands on was de escalation and kept the scene from getting into a shooting (the airman case was different but I am referring to general street contacts with subjects outside in public that go south and is a shooting when a smack on the melon or arm bar use to be on)

Cops don’t know how to physically fight anymore it’s taser or gun

While talking to several fellow Rangemater instructors at advance instructior training many that serve in LE feom La to NYC area in between have the same general consensus.

At some point in the next couple years you will se a LEO charged for pointing a gun at people they aren’t allowed to use deadly force with (The case with an Airman sort of goes along but they were referring to just pointing but shooting)

I did it and a lot of folks did we pointed guns at people for misdemeanor BS we really didn’t have to and we were wrong. Just some of us are better at crisis management and ones that are not are the police shoot people they shouldn’t. And for the naysayers if I am a cop in your town are you OK with me a or anyone pointing a loaded duty weapon at your loved one because of a minor misdemeanor as a means to control and modify behavior?
It should be no!

Lots of truth there ECS!

I'm especially in agreement with the last part... if the situation is threatening enough that it requires a LEO drawing their firearm AND pointing it at someone, the LEO should be able to clearly articulate why what would otherwise be a felony assault charge, was necessary.

 

[ECS686]

Holy wall of text. (but kudos for breaking it up into paragraphs)

@ECS686 you may have the experience and training that you claim to have. But my God man that was painful to read.

Then you should watch a Primary Secondary podcast with Matt Landfair LOL

Sorry I basically combine some other posts into one as a lot of folks don’t go through posts on how many pages are we up to?

And I was bored and thought why not

 

[KLB]

At three feet? Yeah...



So, not straight down, by his side.

I don't have a Glock, so I cannot speak to them. I tried with both my M&P and my Masada. The M&P, with a straight back, dots become visible at about 60 degrees. The Masada, with a slanted back sight, is visible at about 40 degrees. Those are both when the sights first become visible, not plainly visible.

It is much more likely, he saw the gun where it was in the first visible frame.

The conclusion of that investigation says the same thing. None of the available evidence suggests the gun was pointed anywhere but down.

Deputy Duran said he saw Mr. Fortson’s firearm as he (Duran) finished saying step back. Hesaid Mr. Fortson’s elbow was slightly canted. Deputy Duran demonstrated Mr. Fortson’shand/gun position when he (Duran) first saw the firearm. It was a position which had the firearmpointing down with a slight angle forward. He then demonstrated a hip-shooting position whichhad the firearm pointing forward and he said it was not that. Deputy Duran described seeing thewhite U shape in the rear sight of the firearm when he first saw the firearm. To see the rear faceof the rear sight sufficiently enough to make out the markings, the firearm would have to have asignificant downward pointing angle.

The objective facts presented to Deputy Duran were the following:
• He was dispatched to an in progress physical disturbance in an apartment.
• He received second-hand information from the leasing agent about the current incident, and she relayed an incident from weeks prior that happened in the area of the apartment he was responding to.
• He listened for sounds of a disturbance at the apartment door and did not hear any.
• He knocked without announcing his presence and listened for a response. Four times Deputy Duran qualified what he believed Mr. Fortson said by saying, “Something to the effect of.” When describing what he heard, Deputy Duran said, “Something to the effect of, it's the ****ing police.”
• He knocked two more times, and announced his presence both of those times.
• When the door opened, Deputy Duran said Mr. Fortson was moving towards him. Deputy Duran said, “Step back,” and Deputy Duran said he (Fortson) took another slight step forward.
• He described seeing aggression and anger in Mr. Fortson’s eyes. Deputy Duran further described Mr. Fortson as having a discontented, non-inquisitive stare.
• Deputy Duran saw Mr. Fortson had a firearm in his hand with his (Fortson) elbow slightly canted. He described the firearm as not pointing at him (Duran). The firearm was pointed at the ground sufficiently enough for Deputy Duran to have clearly seen the rear face of the rear sight.

Do you think that the investigation was flawed and they just railroaded the Deputy?