USAF Airman Killed in Wrong Address Police Incident

[ECS686]

To support the criminal charges, it doesnt matter. If he's heard calling out loudly on his body cam, he did his job. Not his fault if the kid didnt hear him.

It also didn’t help the cop that he never shouted “drop the gun” until after he shot him X times and kid was I. The ground.

Like Acorn cop this dude was way beyond his crisis management level and screwed up.

Just like the 2 Deputies I. Houston that mag dumped through windows and walls of the apartment 40 rounds (only hitting her 2 non critical places) some because a homeowner had a gun down to their side.

 

[KLB]

To support the criminal charges, it doesnt matter. If he's heard calling out loudly on his body cam, he did his job. Not his fault if the kid didnt hear him.

What difference does any of that make for the legality of killing the airman? A gun pointed at the ground is not grounds to kill someone.

 

[Denny347]

A gun pointed at the ground is not grounds to kill someone.

It could be. To use deadly force, a reasonable officer, given the exact same set of facts and circumstances, would reasonably believe that the force was necessary to prevent serious bodily harm or death to the officer or third party. Now, I'm not saying that this particular UoF was reasonable. However, I will not also make the blanket statement that there will NEVER be a time where shooting someone while holding a gun at their side would be reasonable. What if the suspect was holding a gun, pointed to the ground, but he was standing behind a victim, with his free arm around the victim's neck (not strangling them, just controlling movement) and the suspect is making VERBAL threats to shoot this victim? I think we'd all agree that NOT shooting him, given the opportunity, would be wrong. Each UoF situation is unique and should only be judged based on those facts/circumstances in that particular situation.

 

[Shadow01]

It could be. To use deadly force, a reasonable officer, given the exact same set of facts and circumstances, would reasonably believe that the force was necessary to prevent serious bodily harm or death to the officer or third party. Now, I'm not saying that this particular UoF was reasonable. However, I will not also make the blanket statement that there will NEVER be a time where shooting someone while holding a gun at their side would be reasonable. What if the suspect was holding a gun, pointed to the ground, but he was standing behind a victim, with his free arm around the victim's neck (not strangling them, just controlling movement) and the suspect is making VERBAL threats to shoot this victim? I think we'd all agree that NOT shooting him, given the opportunity, would be wrong. Each UoF situation is unique and should only be judged based on those facts/circumstances in that particular situation.

This is reasonable as long as you can replace “officer” with citizen in a citizen on citizen altercation of the same description.

 

[KLB]

It could be. To use deadly force, a reasonable officer, given the exact same set of facts and circumstances, would reasonably believe that the force was necessary to prevent serious bodily harm or death to the officer or third party. Now, I'm not saying that this particular UoF was reasonable. However, I will not also make the blanket statement that there will NEVER be a time where shooting someone while holding a gun at their side would be reasonable. What if the suspect was holding a gun, pointed to the ground, but he was standing behind a victim, with his free arm around the victim's neck (not strangling them, just controlling movement) and the suspect is making VERBAL threats to shoot this victim? I think we'd all agree that NOT shooting him, given the opportunity, would be wrong. Each UoF situation is unique and should only be judged based on those facts/circumstances in that particular situation.

Agreed. I was referring to this specific case though. Door opened, guy had gun in hand, officer shot him seconds after the door opened.

 

[Route 45]

If he smoked some white dude with missing teeth and meth in his bathroom drawer, we wouldn't be talking about this.

Yeah?

You literally posted in this thread where we discussed a white dude in almost the same situation. Not sure about his dental status or contents of his bathroom drawer, but also not sure how that's relevant.

Police Kill Man Who Answered Door With Gun In Hand

This one doesn't look good. A reminder to use caution when answering a door knock at night. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2020/07/17/noise-complaint-fatal-police-shooting-ryan-whitaker/5459142002/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=675vUIszwtw

www.indianagunowners.com

If I had to pick a neighbor, I'd take black Airman who is serving his country and answers the door with a gun over white methbilly who answers his door with a gun. I guess I'm just weird like that.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

i think the point was a white dude was gunned down in a very similar (worse IMO*) situation and it's not national news. "We" discussed it, but crickets on the national news stage.

* I say worse because it didn't appear he had gun in hand, gun in small of back and hand behind his back.

The one I had problems with was the homeowner shot through a window in his own house by police on a suspected prowler call.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Back to this tragic shooting... deputy was on a domesti cviolence call and went to the apartment the apartment manager directed him to... not sure where the "he was at the wrong apartment" comments come from other than Crump's initial, false statements... he knocked and announced multiple times, loudly... after a delay and no "who's there?", "What do you want?", no communication from the apartment, etc, dude opens door with a gun in hand.

Is the officer in reasonable fear for his life... I'd say yes given those facts. I see gun in hand as different from holstered gun, etc.

Also, where is the gun pointed as the door opens?

We don't know as we don't "see" the gun in the badge cam until the deputy had already drawn... is it possible the gun was pointing out the door, towards the deputy, and the Airman, recognizing a cop, pointed it down in that second or two?

Does it matter? If the handgun was anything other than pointing straight down, does it change anything for those who see this as criminal?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Does “loudly announced”=the person in the apartment heard the announcement ?

Having lived in several apartments, I'd say so loud that everyone in that apartment, the surrounding apartments, the apartments upstairs and downstairs from the apartment, would be able to easily hear and comprehend.

From the deputy's perspective, the dude "obviously" heard it because he came to the door.

And he did... even told his GF someone was at his door.

So, let's see... someone banging on the door announcing themselves as LEO, I don't see anyone through the peephole, so I'm going to open my door with a gun in hand?

Sorry, but I see that as the airman's mistake that cost him his life.

 

[firecadet613]

Don't answer the door.

 

[ECS686]

Having lived in several apartments, I'd say so loud that everyone in that apartment, the surrounding apartments, the apartments upstairs and downstairs from the apartment, would be able to easily hear and comprehend.

From the deputy's perspective, the dude "obviously" heard it because he came to the door.

And he did... even told his GF someone was at his door.

So, let's see... someone banging on the door announcing themselves as LEO, I don't see anyone through the peephole, so I'm going to open my door with a gun in hand?

Sorry, but I see that as the airman's mistake that cost him his life.

While some of us agree we wouldn’t have answered the door that’s fine and dandy and yes that’s how it should have been handled but that’s speculation he heard he announcement of Police we don’t really know.


And sadly a lot of gun folks would do and have done the same thing and have not been shot by the police.

answering your door while holding a gun pointed down at the floor in your own house is not illegal!
Unwise or should a woulda coulda doesn’t justify the LEO or anyone shooting you!

 

[Denny347]

Agreed. I was referring to this specific case though. Door opened, guy had gun in hand, officer shot him seconds after the door opened.

Indeed. The facts known to us (admittedly missing some) don't appear to support this UoF. There are lots of missing details but I wouldn't expect the media to have them, they rarely do. I'm curious about the forced entry. There are only 3 ways an officer can enter a dwelling, a warrant, permission, or exigent circumstance. A disturbance alone isn't enough...those are a dime a dozen. They would have to articulate that they believed someone's life was in danger and immediate action was required. It's a crap show for sure and an area of law that many overlook.

 

[KLB]

Back to this tragic shooting... deputy was on a domesti cviolence call and went to the apartment the apartment manager directed him to... not sure where the "he was at the wrong apartment" comments come from other than Crump's initial, false statements... he knocked and announced multiple times, loudly... after a delay and no "who's there?", "What do you want?", no communication from the apartment, etc, dude opens door with a gun in hand.

How could there be a domestic violence call on an apartment with one person in it? Was he beating and screaming at himself?

Is the officer in reasonable fear for his life... I'd say yes given those facts. I see gun in hand as different from holstered gun, etc.

So a gun in hand equals fear for life in your eyes? I would answer the door in a similar fashion if someone was banging on my door and have.

Also, where is the gun pointed as the door opens?

We don't know as we don't "see" the gun in the badge cam until the deputy had already drawn... is it possible the gun was pointing out the door, towards the deputy, and the Airman, recognizing a cop, pointed it down in that second or two?

Does it matter? If the handgun was anything other than pointing straight down, does it change anything for those who see this as criminal?

Obviously what the airman was doing with the gun before he was shot is important. The officer tells him to step out and then shoots him. Not likely that the guy dropped his arm in that one second. If the officer saw that though, I am sure it will come up in his defense.

 

[KLB]

Indeed. The facts known to us (admittedly missing some) don't appear to support this UoF. There are lots of missing details but I wouldn't expect the media to have them, they rarely do. I'm curious about the forced entry. There are only 3 ways an officer can enter a dwelling, a warrant, permission, or exigent circumstance. A disturbance alone isn't enough...those are a dime a dozen. They would have to articulate that they believed someone's life was in danger and immediate action was required. It's a crap show for sure and an area of law that many overlook.

There was no forced entry. The airman opened the door gun in hand.

 

[Route 45]

i think the point was a white dude was gunned down in a very similar (worse IMO*) situation and it's not national news. "We" discussed it, but crickets on the national news stage.

All national news sources. And one from the UK for good measure.

Police officer who killed Phoenix man won’t face charges

Prosecutors declined to charge a Phoenix police officer who fatally shot a man in the back at an apartment complex where a neighbor had reported that the man and his girlfriend were arguing loudly.

apnews.com

Phoenix Police to Fire Officer Who Fatally Shot Ryan Whitaker in the Back

The officer will remain on administrative leave until he is officially removed from the force and will be able to appeal the police chief's deicision.

www.newsweek.com

Family of Ryan Whitaker responds to DOJ investigation announcement

Family of Ryan Whitaker, a man shot and killed by Phoenix police, responds to DOJ investigation into the department.

www.yahoo.com

Phoenix PD body cam footage shows the shooting of Ryan Whitaker

In this graphic video, Phoenix Police Department body cam footage shows the shooting of Ryan Whitaker on May 21, 2020. Viewer discretion is advised. (The timestamp shown is incorrect.)

www.usatoday.com

Arizona man shot dead by cop for answering door with gun in hand

Arizona man Ryan Whitaker, 40, was fatally shot by a Phoenix police officer responding to a noise complaint at his home on May 21 around 10pm.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Got his own Wikipedia page as well. Weird for something that no one ever heard about.

Killing of Ryan Whitaker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SheepDog4Life]

How could there be a domestic violence call on an apartment with one person in it? Was he beating and screaming at himself?

There was a DV call... it's why the deputy was even there in the first place.

It's been a minute, but IIRC, in the badge cam the deputy interacts with the caller, the apartment complex manager, and she directs him to the Airman's apartment. Unless I missed something, the apartment number she said was the apartment number on the door the deputy went to.

And that's all the deputy knew to that point...

So a gun in hand equals fear for life in your eyes? I would answer the door in a similar fashion if someone was banging on my door and have.

In certain situations, unholstered gun in hand, yes... for example, some rando banging on your door, you open the door and they have a handgun in their hand? Are you saying that is no threat until they point it at you?

Another situation, someone trespassing on my private hunting land... OC handgun on hip is NOT the same as gun in hand.

Obviously what the airman was doing with the gun before he was shot is important. The officer tells him to step out and then shoots him. Not likely that the guy dropped his arm in that one second. If the officer saw that though, I am sure it will come up in his defense.

Why do you say that? Same OODA loop... gun at the ready, recognizing a LEO and lowering it. IMO, entirely possible... and as you say, eminently important.

 

[Denny347]

There was no forced entry. The airman opened the door gun in hand.

Oh, the article used the term "barged in". Figures.

 

[ECS686]

There was a DV call... it's why the deputy was even there in the first place.

It's been a minute, but IIRC, in the badge cam the deputy interacts with the caller, the apartment complex manager, and she directs him to the Airman's apartment. Unless I missed something, the apartment number she said was the apartment number on the door the deputy went to.

And that's all the deputy knew to that point...



In certain situations, unholstered gun in hand, yes... for example, some rando banging on your door, you open the door and they have a handgun in their hand? Are you saying that is no threat until they point it at you?

Another situation, someone trespassing on my private hunting land... OC handgun on hip is NOT the same as gun in hand.


Why do you say that? Same OODA loop... gun at the ready, recognizing a LEO and lowering it. IMO, entirely possible... and as you say, eminently important.

I never saw the airman at anytime have the gun up.

That said the airman was there with the gun down at the floor relaxed for a moment with his other hand up, the only OODA loop was when the LEO recognized the gun LEO immediately (as in sub 1 second) drew and fired.
Only after assessing the kid on the ground did he yell “drop the gun”

This wasn’t a homicide or anything but I watched a U.S. Attorney refuse to charge an inmate for a “staff assault” in a federal prison. The middle of then day rink it was loud the Officer (who was a knucklehead anyway) slapped the inmate in the shoulder to get his attention (Officers statement when he regained consciousness) the inmate reacted turning and striking the officer one time in the neck head area (video was like dang the dude had some power for a short punch)

Officer was laid out I ate stood there was like WTF hands up said he didn’t know it was a staff member.

USA basically said the inmate was no different than a resident in their house and he didn’t see the staff member and (all on video) the force of the staff member slapping him it was within reason for the inmate to believe he was under attack by another inmate.

Making decisions as an LEO sucks sometimes but your stepping out into it when you start shootings folks in their own homes and just because they have a gun the “what are they doing with it” is a BIG factor if your right your a hero if your wrong well there’s probably jail time and or civil lawsuit.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

All national news sources. And one from the UK for good measure.

Police officer who killed Phoenix man won’t face charges

Prosecutors declined to charge a Phoenix police officer who fatally shot a man in the back at an apartment complex where a neighbor had reported that the man and his girlfriend were arguing loudly.

apnews.com

Phoenix Police to Fire Officer Who Fatally Shot Ryan Whitaker in the Back

The officer will remain on administrative leave until he is officially removed from the force and will be able to appeal the police chief's deicision.

www.newsweek.com

Family of Ryan Whitaker responds to DOJ investigation announcement

Family of Ryan Whitaker, a man shot and killed by Phoenix police, responds to DOJ investigation into the department.

www.yahoo.com

Phoenix PD body cam footage shows the shooting of Ryan Whitaker

In this graphic video, Phoenix Police Department body cam footage shows the shooting of Ryan Whitaker on May 21, 2020. Viewer discretion is advised. (The timestamp shown is incorrect.)

www.usatoday.com

Arizona man shot dead by cop for answering door with gun in hand

Arizona man Ryan Whitaker, 40, was fatally shot by a Phoenix police officer responding to a noise complaint at his home on May 21 around 10pm.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Got his own Wikipedia page as well. Weird for something that no one ever heard about.

Killing of Ryan Whitaker - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sure, perhaps I missed the multiple reports and follow-ups, commentary and discussions of this on the national nightly news, morning shows, etc. for weeks on end...

 

[Route 45]

Sure, perhaps I missed the multiple reports and follow-ups, commentary and discussions of this on the national nightly news, morning shows, etc. for weeks on end...

You watch the nightly national news and morning shows?

You must care a lot more what those clowns think than I do.