Update to: Student expelled for having unloaded shotguns in truck

[littletommy]

Duly noted. However, I stand by my comment. These are the people who decide what is going to be force fed to our kids, thus, my origional comment. Nothing was said about teachers, although I see a lot of problems there too.

 

[dukeboy_318]

I'm not looking to start a war or thread jack this topic, but I cannot let this statement go without a response. The following explanation may not be popular with some, but I feel it necessary to point out.

My wife is a teacher, and while she is not in the union, she does reap some of the benefits they provide.

1. The union negotiates the contracts so that teachers are not taken advantage of. Of all the professions in the world, teachers are the most likely to be taken advantage of since they continue no matter the circumstances to help the children. If people had their way, teachers would work for nothing.

2. "the sweetest contracts" ? Really? After graduating with a 4+year degree that costs over $60,000+ (not including books, etc.) going into a job that pays you ~$28,000 per year, with a benefits package that costs over $600 per month for a family of three, requires you to work 10-12 hour per day and bring work home to complete, meet with parents for conferences off hours for free, volunteer at least 14 hours per year to outside work for after school activities, and requires you to purchase all your own supplies including the paying $ .05 per copy for paper used to make activity sheets and homework for the children, you really think that is a "sweet contract"? There is a lot that is paid for on the teacher's dime that eats into that sweet starting pay that pays less than most people can make out of high school.

3. With that above information, do you think that a teacher could ever afford a lawyer to defend his/herself if a false accusation is made from a parent or child? The union offers that help.

Point is, if any union has its place, the teachers union does. They do not just take and take as some would assume, they make it so teachers can make a living at what they do, as meager as it might be. I'm not saying that there are not bad teachers out there, but you can rest assured, most are only there to help the children.

I think what happened in CA was silly, but I am glad to see that it was handled properly.

i understand and agree with the fact about teachers, my beef is that my local school board decides to spend 25 million on a swimming pool but they want to lay off teachers and make 40 plus size classes and cut after school activites except for the big ticket sports due to the property tax reduction and they also spend 500k to hire IU to conduct a search for a new superintendant that they end up hiring out of the school system and paying them over 250 grand a year. thats what i think he meant by sweet contracts. some teachers do bust their buts helping students and it ticks me off when they vote to spend millions on stupid and un needed swimming pools when the highschool they want to build it at already has one

 

[CopperWires]

That's exactly it. Some board members here are only starting their political careers. I don't know first hand but seems very corrupt. Or at the very least, misguided.

I have friends that are teachers in and around this area, and although they seem to have a better deal then the gentleman's wife, it is still hard for the teachers. There is always an onslaught of more and more responsibilities to the teachers.

 

[dukeboy_318]

yeah and it dont stop at local schools either, IU is screwing over their instructors and students but yet spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on sculptures and other stupid stuff while cutting majors and combing classes and even not paying instructors on time. my instructors weren paid for november and december until after january 1st because of the mass budget cuts so they had to wait until collecting the spring semseters tution to pay em. and they have raised book prices by 25 percent

 

[ezdubbin97]

By "sweet contracts" I assumed that you meant the yearly teacher contract which is negotiated by the union, sorry if I misunderstood.

As far as the money wasted by the building funds while teachers are being laid off, I completely agree. My wife might not have a job next year as she is only in her third year of teaching, and even if she does still has a job, a possible pay cut and facing classrooms of over 40 children with no art, PE, or music classes isn't exactly a cherry situation. Hopefully with the passing of HB309 it will help to temporarily subdue the situation.

I see more problems to future education coming out of new regulations presented by "Dr." Tony Bennett then with the union.

 

[littletommy]

I have three immediate family members who are teachers, and I agree, it's a tough way to make a living. They don't like the teachers union either, as it runs much like...well...a union. My problem with them is they seem to be more concerned with defending, say, a sub-par teacher and keeping them employed, than getting somebody who's better qualified for the job of educating our kids, and there is no room for that way of thinking in education. Yes, most BS policy we the public hear about origionate with the school board, so obviously they are the bad guys here, or co-conspirators maybe. Right now a lot of folks are worried/scared about how out of control things are getting in government...from D.C. right down to local school boards. I think it's a good thing really, cause when people get pushed far enough, things will change. I just feel sorry for the unfortunate ones who fall victim to these insane policies.

 

[dukeboy_318]

maybe if we get enough people motivated to change it, i think the state of MA is just the start with its new election of a republic to Sen. Kennedys seat

 

[dooleydclown]

Wow such common sense from the left coast!

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

Ez, please take my following comments as a discussion of the general situation, not a personal attack on your wife, okay?

A bit of background:

I am a disabled veteran. My son is now 13 years old and he went through a couple of years of emotional turmoil when my doctors were unsure that they could get my chronic medical conditions under control. Several times they told my wife to start making funeral preparations because they didn't know how things were going to go for me. Lots of stress in the house, no money, we lost our house, etc., etc., etc. It affected my son and step-son a lot even with our best efforts to shield them the biggest brunt of what was happening.

As I was stabilizing, my younger son started to act out in class, not doing homework, not turning homework in, not participating in class... You get the picture. To help the teacher deal with my son, I started to go to class with him in his elementary school for whatever time I could manage each day until I ran out of physical energy. I was trying to keep him on-task, participating, etc. I worked with his teachers before school, during the day and after school over the approximately three years so I gained a "feel" for what a teacher in that school system encountered in the classroom as well as overhearing pressures added by the administration making changes, adding responsibilities and such.

1. The union negotiates the contracts so that teachers are not taken advantage of. Of all the professions in the world, teachers are the most likely to be taken advantage of since they continue no matter the circumstances to help the children. If people had their way, teachers would work for nothing.

Not true. The overall cost of educating a child is blurred with teacher salary. The latest figure I saw a week or two ago in the Indy Star was approximately $11,400 per child.

My son Jake's third grade teacher had nearly 30 years in teaching. Several times she told me that she made over $50,000 and "teaching just wasn't worth it anymore." To her, the money she was being paid no longer outweighed the frustration she felt in dealing with the children in her class. As a parent and taxpayer this greatly frustrated me because I didn't feel like I was getting my money's worth listening to the way she daily berated the majority of her class, her usual arrival to the school property 5-10 minutes before the start of school, the children leaving school at 2:20 P.M. and her closing and locking her door to leave at 2:30. A six hour and 40 minute work day. Her regular practice was to have the children exchange papers and grade them. Her lesson plan was provided by the school system so she (and all other teachers) did not have the responsibility of constructing one and having it approved. I have several more examples but will stop here.

What was I paying this teacher for? How was she being taken advantage of? (Rhetorical questions so I'm not asking you to answer for her).

2. "the sweetest contracts" ? Really? After graduating with a 4+year degree that costs over $60,000+ (not including books, etc.) going into a job that pays you ~$28,000 per year, with a benefits package that costs over $600 per month for a family of three, requires you to work 10-12 hour per day and bring work home to complete, meet with parents for conferences off hours for free, volunteer at least 14 hours per year to outside work for after school activities,

[SNIP]

I cut it off here because I have addressed some of it above.

I will be honest and say that I saw some of the same things you listed in teachers that were just starting their careers. High insurance rates, paying off student loans, long work days to "go the extra mile" for the students by decorating the classroom, planning holiday parties and such. I saw some teachers in all seniority ranges that did work very, very hard for their students.

and requires you to purchase all your own supplies including the paying $ .05 per copy for paper used to make activity sheets and homework for the children, you really think that is a "sweet contract"? There is a lot that is paid for on the teacher's dime that eats into that sweet starting pay that pays less than most people can make out of high school.

My rhetorical question is "WHY?"

The administration not providing activity books? Charging a teacher for use of the copy machine and/or the paper?

Why wouldn't the teachers be screaming to the school board, the PTO/PTA and the parents about this? I could understand if it were personal use of the machine, but that is not what I am understanding from your words. Charging a teacher for materials that are mandated by the school to use to complete her job is utterly wrong.

It does frustrate me as a parent to periodically receive lists from the school requesting more kleenex, hand sanitizer, pens, pencils, paper, printer paper, batteries, calculators, rulers, glue, crayons, erasers and other things I can't remember from the last one I received.

In an evil way, I would like a list of the parents that are sending their children to school without these items and asking me to donate for their child. If it is a genuinely needy family, I have no problem with that. I'll take the parent shopping or whatever needs to be done. For children or parents that fail to equip themselves out of laziness - Uh uh. Nope.

3. With that above information, do you think that a teacher could ever afford a lawyer to defend his/herself if a false accusation is made from a parent or child? The union offers that help.

Depending on the accusation, yes. The school system we were in for Jake's third grade (we moved to Northern Indiana October 2008) had a lawyer available through the union for teachers accused of professional improprieties. Sexual abuse, theft and such were left to the teacher to hire a lawyer.

The letter to the editor in the Indy Star where I read the $11,400 figure was written by a teacher in the Indianapolis school districts. The link to it is too old for me to post here without paying a subscription and for personal reasons I won't pay the IS a nickel to reference their information. The teacher that wrote it went on to say in it that she had majors in the areas she teaches but had never used that background while teaching in class. Most of her teaching involved teaching social skills, hygiene, inter-personal communications and such, not Shakespeare. Her lesson plans were provided to her by the district, thus freeing her personal time but also tying her hands to going off-subject or exploring information not on the official docket. What I took from her letter was that she was a glorified baby sitter.

As a parent that wants my child to get a better than average education, I get frustrated with (angry at) my fellow parents and the school system as a whole when I see incidences where teachers are reduced to babysitting roles. I want my child taught and not "occupied and appeased" during the weekdays.

Again, please do not take this as a slam on your spouse. It is not meant to be. You used a personal example of what is wrong with public education from the teachers' standpoint. I am bringing examples from a parent's standpoint that is as close to be a teacher without actually being a teacher.

Tell your wife thank you from me for being a caring teacher. I wish her the best.

 

[Indy317]

... After graduating with a 4+year degree that costs over $60,000+ (not including books, etc.)

I want to comment on this part. If your wife has $60K in higher education costs, that is on _her_. If you look at the population centers of this state, almost everyone is within an hours drive, tops, to some sort of public higher education institute. Too many people want to wrap themselves up in the college debt blanket as a reason they need _more_ money, but those folks didn't commute to school to live at home, they likely didn't fill out more than 20 or so applications for various forms of aid, etc. etc..

Right now, if you or your kid is heading toward college, I highly suggest living at home, at least for two years. The entire idea of the "college life" is packaged and pushed by higher education, mostly those that run the on-campus residential departments, as something that a younger person _MUST_ do in order to be a "normal" citizen. That is complete garbage, and it only adds thousands to your higher education expenses.

For folks who didn't know, there was an agreement with Ivy Tech between almost all the state funded colleges and universities. One needs to go to Ivy Tech for two years, get cheaper credits that will transfer to the bigger schools. Before you do this, ask the school where you plan to get a four year degree from which Ivy Tech credits they allow and which ones they don't. If Ivy Tech doesn't seem like a good idea, I would estimate 80% of the population in this state is within a 45 min. drive to their nearest campus of a public school (IUPUI, IUPUI Columbus, IUPUI Fort Wayne, IU also has campuses in Blommington Richmond, Kokomo, New Albany, S. Bend, and Gary. IU offers classes in Connersville and New Castle as well. Purdue has a campus in Lake County). Essentially 80% of this states population should be able to drive to some location and not have to live on campus for at least two years of their college education. The savings are huge.

I didn't want to drift this thread, but I constantly hear folks complaining about their low paying jobs and how it took several tens of thousands of dollars to get a degree to do the job. Well, it doesn't _have_ to be that way.

 

[ezdubbin97]

Blue- No offense taken, as I stated, there are bad teachers. My wife is a primary education teacher (licensed K-6), so her situation is a little different. She arrives at work by around 6:30am and usually leaves around 4:30-5pm (as do most of those in her school), though sometimes she is required to stay until 9pm for after school programs.
It is unfortunate that she has to pay for copies, but that is how they felt they could save money . All teachers of course pay for any of the books and whatever educational extras the classroom has. She also picks up the slack for parents who refuse to send there children in with proper materials. Unfortunately, parents today are not nearly as involved as they should be.

As far as school goes, she worked part time her entire school career, paid all her own bills, and went to Purdue, so her costs vary from what it may cost others. I threw out that number as an in between, Purdue runs ~$8k per year plus books for in state, ~$23k for non-residents. When considering career dollars for a 4year + (took her ~6) degree, there are better options out there (if you are in it for the $$$), that is the only point I was making. Heck, you could have a BS EET for the same expense.

Just know that a lot of teachers are working hard out there and unappreciated by the masses. I stick up for my wife because I know how hard she works and it kills me that she does, but her love for children is her reward. The system is flawed, and cutbacks as well as changes being instituted right now will adversely effect the future quality of education. If you haven't been up on things, the changes in teaching requirements to passing a "knowledge" test and possessing simply a BS in a subject in order to qualify as a teacher is insane. Rating schools with an A-F grading system based off testing (as it is laid out) is NOT a good idea, look at Florida who adopted this in the past.

But I digress... I do encourage anyone to look into some of these things if they are curious...