UPDATE on OC at Marshall County Fair

[ryknoll3]

I have to give kudos to the op for the handling of the situation. That being said I partially agree with j706. Only in the fact that if some discretion had been observed there would have been no issues and a rule banning the carry of firearms probably wouldn't be forthcoming. I am sure I will be flamed. I personally oc about 80% of the time and cc the other 20%. Also many times when I do oc I try to wear a jersey or button up not buttoned just to tone it down. If it is seen that's fine but it isn't 100% obvious. It comes down to situations. As far as giving kudos to the sheriff department they don't deserve it. They should have been proactive instead of reactive in informing thier officers imo. They all have computers in the car nowadays and usually time to kill. The brass should send emails that have to be replied to informing them of current law changes and department policy. That would probably make too much sense though.

Again, I fail to see the issue here. IMO, it was more important for the LEO to be educated than to try to slip under the radar.

If they don't make a rule, and you OC, they ask you to leave.

If they don't have a rule and you CC, no-one's the wiser, you go about your business and enjoy the fair.

If they MAKE a rule and you OC, they will ask you to leave.

If they MAKE a rule and you CC, no-one's the wiser, you go about your business and enjoy the fair.

I don't see the difference here at all!

 

[Compatriot G]

I decided to start a new thread since the other one obviously got a little side-tracked.

I just got off the phone with Chief Deputy Ron Babcock. He said that he went to the Sheriff and discussed matters with him, and they both agreed that I was in the right, and the Reserve officer way completely out of line. I think we all knew this, but it was good to see that he took an unbiased stand rather than just siding with the LEO. He said that the sheriff would be doing 2 things as a result of this encounter.

1. He would be implementing training for the Reserve Officers that would keep them updated on current laws. He said that the Reserves are part time, and basically "free labor" for the Sheriff's Dept., but if they were going to be out there at all, the Sheriff's Dept needs to make sure they know the law.

2. The Sheriff will be going to the Marshall County Fair Board and speaking with them about this incident. They have no policy on firearms, and they need to be made aware of what their security is enforcing. If they desire to make a policy on firearms, they need to know what the law says, and make their policy clear to the public.

After discussing the incident, he asked what I carry, and what my line of work was. We continued a very informal and friendly chat, and parted amicably.

I have to say that I am satisfied with the response from the Marshall County Sheriff's Department. It's not that I am completely enthusiastic about the response, but I feel that it was handled adequately. I am not one to demand a "pound of flesh" when I am wronged. I see it like this: There was a problem because the officer was either misinformed or just chose to assert his opinion. The Sheriff's Dept was not aware that this officer was taking this action, and by my complaint, it has been brought to their attention. Once brought to their attention, they have implemented training to guard against this behavior happening again.

Others may have done things differently, but at the end of the day, I think we are all in a better position if the officers are trained properly. And that's what I was going for all along.

I would also like to insert here a big +1 to Chief Babcock. He seems like a very pro-gun and pro-rights guy, and I am fairly certain that he will make sure that no more officers are guilty of this type of behavior. As for the Reserve Officer, I am not sure what happened to him. But I am sure that he is now aware that we citizens will not tuck our tails between our legs and cower to an officer of the law who abuses his authority. Feel free to critique me and/or disagree with me, but it was my situation, and that's how I handled it.


*Note- I searched high and low, and it seems that the Fair Board is in fact a private organization, and it would be very difficult to prove that they are a political subdivision, so suing is out of the question. Besides that, I never wanted to "punish" anyone, but I was seeking to correct an improper action.

If you look in the other thread, post#21 by eldirector, has a link to a Marshall County budget meeting. In the minutes of the meeting, it has listed, "4-H Fair $8500". If the county is using tax dollars to support the 4-H fair, then I would have to believe it is public, not private.

 

[cowgirl.sdm]

I just want to interject here that as of July 1 of this year, local municipalities CANNOT make any type of legislation that deals with carrying a firearm. And I don't see anything happening on a State level any time soon. I realize that my actions may have contributed to the inevitable ban on firearms at the fair. It is private property,and they have the right to make that rule. I will simply do the same thing that I do every other time I see a "No guns allowed" sign. More importantly, my actions have contributed to the further training of the reserve officers which IMHO, outweighs whatever rule a private organization might make.

I can't find the email address of the Sheriff's Dept, but I plan on writing a letter to the Sheriff praising him and Chief Deputy Babcock for their handling of the situation.

I so agree with this. It is there right to make the choice if it is private property, as much as it is our right to carry on non private property. Way to follow through and get some action. Because of you speaking up, others will be more educated on the law.

 

[down3green]

I have it on good authority that the chief will dock his pay for a few weeks.

.

His "free labor" pay?


.

 

[cordex]

.

His "free labor" pay?


.

Yep!

 

[resdep]

The original post was very good. I plan on giving a copy of it to the reserves that I work with at our next meeting.
Although this particular reserve didn't know or understand the law in question, that by no means is the mindset of all reserves. Most of the ones I deal with strive to be informed and operate in a professional manner. Our training often involves the Prosecutor's office in explaining the law.
If any of you have seen the Indiana Criminal Code you would maybe understand why things like this happen. That code is huge. I don't believe it is possible for one man to know every thing that is in it.
As far as his pay being docked it is possible that the Fair in question hires the reserves for this function. Our local Fair Board hires us for our county fair. During this time many people will stop us and thank us for being there and being visible. For many reserves that is the only compensation they receive. A lot of departments don't supply all of the equipment to new reserves and they pay for it out of their pocket.
So, if you meet a reserve or any officer, and they aren't as polite or as knowledgeable as you think they should be call the department and talk with their supervisor. I am sure they would want to know.
Thanks for your time,
resdep

 

[garyindiane]

If any of you have seen the Indiana Criminal Code you would maybe understand why things like this happen. That code is huge. I don't believe it is possible for one man to know every thing that is in it.

I have always heard LEOs tell citizens that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just saying


The officer screwed up and was called out on it. End of story. Outcome turned out great. The Dept will get more training as a result, so maybe this will not be a issue in the future. If the officer did not know he could have called another officer who did. But instead he chose option B.

Sorry for the rant. I just can not understand why no one takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. It can not always be someone elses fault.

1. Admit you screwed up
2. Man up don't make excuses
3. learn from you mistakes
4. Life goes on. Dont dwell on your mistakes.



+1 to the OP
+1 to the Dept
-2 to the officer

Sorry to muck up your thread OP

 

[Bill of Rights]

Enough with the cop-bashing, or else I'm contacting a mod.

Bring it.

 

[IndyBeerman]

Snip
If any of you have seen the Indiana Criminal Code you would maybe understand why things like this happen. That code is huge. I don't believe it is possible for one man to know every thing that is in it.

I have always heard LEOs tell citizens that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just saying
Snip/QUOTE]


DING DING DING!!!

And we haaaaaaaave a winnnnnnner!

 

[Expat]

So do we think they are all actually ignorant or are they feigning ignorance and using that as an excuse to usurp our rights?

 

[dross]

This ignorance of the law issue is irritating.

If I as a citizen honestly don't know I'm breaking a law, that is not a defense. If I'm a cop who enforces a law that doesn't exist because I honestly believe it exists, we're supposed to understand.

Using force, or the threat of force is a very big deal. As a citizen, I'm held to a very strict standard on the use of force. If I threaten someone to get him to comply, or if I handcuff him and hold him for an hour, I'm going to jail for a crime if I'm not justified in the use of force.

Cops need more leeway than that in order to do their job. Leeway only goes so far, however. If you are not sure an action is against the law, DON'T enforce it. If you do, it ought to be a very big deal.

I agree, as a cop you can't know every Indiana statute. The answer then, is simple: Don't enforce the ones you don't know for sure.

 

[Hayseed_40]

The answer then, is simple: Don't enforce the ones you don't know for sure.

Are you suggesting common sense?? What are you, some kind of wizard?

 

[Johnson]

Are you suggesting common sense?? What are you, some kind of wizard?

What is this "common sense" that you speak of? And if it is so common, why don't I see more of it?

 

[Expat]

Using force, or the threat of force is a very big deal. As a citizen, I'm held to a very strict standard on the use of force. If I threaten someone to get him to comply, or if I handcuff him and hold him for an hour, I'm going to jail for a crime if I'm not justified in the use of force.

Hopefully we will one day get our rights back to resist with all force necessary the unlawful acts of police.