United Air forcibly removes passenger on overbooked flight

[avboiler11]

United is now considered guilty until proven innocent, and that will encourage arsehats to be arsehats.

There are enough issues with that couple's story that I have some pretty strong doubts as to its validity.

 

[Libertarian01]

Regarding this second story of the wedding couple I think that if I were on a plane that had several extra seats and there was a dude sleeping where I was supposed to be I'd probably just let him sleep and find a seat nearby.

Of course, I would also inform the stewardess at the soonest opportunity as to where I was and why I was there. If they thought it was a big deal then I'd let them deal with it, I just wouldn't give a rip if someone was tired and sleeping while there was plenty of other seating available.

On my flight to Europe many years ago a similar event occurred when a girl wanted to stretch out and sleep in our aisle. I didn't mind and just moved across to another seat. She got what she wanted and I still got to go to Europe, so no big deal. Back then American Airlines didn't say boo. The stewardess saw what was happening and didn't even comment on it.

Regards,

Doug

 

[jbombelli]

My big questions on the new incident... Was there really someone sleeping in their seats? If so, why wasn't THAT guy ejected?

 

[jamil]

Regarding this second story of the wedding couple I think that if I were on a plane that had several extra seats and there was a dude sleeping where I was supposed to be I'd probably just let him sleep and find a seat nearby.

Of course, I would also inform the stewardess at the soonest opportunity as to where I was and why I was there. If they thought it was a big deal then I'd let them deal with it, I just wouldn't give a rip if someone was tired and sleeping while there was plenty of other seating available.

On my flight to Europe many years ago a similar event occurred when a girl wanted to stretch out and sleep in our aisle. I didn't mind and just moved across to another seat. She got what she wanted and I still got to go to Europe, so no big deal. Back then American Airlines didn't say boo. The stewardess saw what was happening and didn't even comment on it.

Regards,

Doug

In this case, United is saying that the party moved into seats for a class that they didn't pay for. Sure. If someone's sleeping in your assigned seat, I think it's not a big deal to move to a nearby seat in the same class that you paid for. I've done that before. When boarding there was someone in my seat. I informed the flight attendant and she said it's not a very full flight and I could find another seat. Of course, this was in coach.

In this instance I kinda believe United. I just don't see why they would kick someone off the plane for that unless there were more to the story than the couple had claimed.

 

[Libertarian01]

In this case, United is saying that the party moved into seats for a class that they didn't pay for. Sure. If someone's sleeping in your assigned seat, I think it's not a big deal to move to a nearby seat in the same class that you paid for. I've done that before. When boarding there was someone in my seat. I informed the flight attendant and she said it's not a very full flight and I could find another seat. Of course, this was in coach.

In this instance I kinda believe United. I just don't see why they would kick someone off the plane for that unless there were more to the story than the couple had claimed.

I could see the issue if the only other seats were in a different class, but otherwise, who cares?

I will not, however, give United the benefit of the doubt, without video proof. How many times have we seen video of LEO or just customer service people doing something where you'd be inclined to say, "Oh I don't believe it. Who would ever be so ridiculous as to do that???" Naturally, I am not going to entirely believe the wedding couple either.

Regards,

Doug

EDIT: Link shows TSA Air Marshall service denies any involvement in this incident. At which point I will begin to question the credibility of the wedding couple.

http://www.chron.com/news/nation-wo...nce-for-United-this-time-with-an-11076960.php

 

[Libertarian01]

I don't know if it has been posted but here is some different video of Dr. Dao before being dragged off of the flight.

United Airlines Incident Footage Shows David Dao and Police Arguing

No matter how United wants to spin this, I do not see him being "belligerent" or "disruptive." Uncooperative? Yes. Firm? Yes. Even respectful, just not willing to leave the plane.

Regards,

Doug

 

[femurphy77]

My big questions on the new incident... Was there really someone sleeping in their seats? If so, why wasn't THAT guy ejected?

No reason to eject him, wake him up and they sit in their assigned seats. The airlines have several different price categories even in the back of the bus, exit rows, the first row behind first class, etc all have extra leg room hence "premium pricing". Video footage of this incident also exists if it hasn't already been discussed that shows that these people were properly removed from the plane. as to the good doctor he was legally informed of the decision to deplane him, he refused and was properly removed. Hell, according to his lawyer he'll be getting millions as a result of his tantrum and free flights for life so what's he complaining about? Remember the captain of an airplane has ultimate authority as granted on the back of every ticket.

 

[MrsGungho]

I don't know if it has been posted but here is some different video of Dr. Dao before being dragged off of the flight.

United Airlines Incident Footage Shows David Dao and Police Arguing

No matter how United wants to spin this, I do not see him being "belligerent" or "disruptive." Uncooperative? Yes. Firm? Yes. Even respectful, just not willing to leave the plane.

Regards,

Doug

my problem with that video is it stops before the incident occurs. Now I am 100% in agreement that the treatment went above what it should have. I still don't see all the facts. IMHO, both parties are at fault for what happened.

 

[avboiler11]

Generally speaking, you won't see a FAM get involved with passenger issues during boarding.

It may not matter to those on the interwebs who don't know what they don't know, but there is a procedural and regulatory reason airlines have designated Ground Security Coordinators and In-Flight Security Coordinators.

 

[avboiler11]

I don't know if it has been posted but here is some different video of Dr. Dao before being dragged off of the flight.

United Airlines Incident Footage Shows David Dao and Police Arguing

No matter how United wants to spin this, I do not see him being "belligerent" or "disruptive." Uncooperative? Yes. Firm? Yes. Even respectful, just not willing to leave the plane.

Regards,

Doug

Allegedly (and I say that because I've heard it from airline sources and cannot verify it myself), this in-cabin video was taken AFTER the good doctor voluntarily got off the jet and went to collect a $800 voucher for surrendering his seat, only to change his mind and re-board the aircraft when he found out he wouldn't be able to get to Louisville via air until the following day.

*IF* that is accurate, it changes the picture a bit...

 

[ArcadiaGP]

United to stop staff from taking seats of boarded passengers | TheHill

 

[Libertarian01]

Allegedly (and I say that because I've heard it from airline sources and cannot verify it myself), this in-cabin video was taken AFTER the good doctor voluntarily got off the jet and went to collect a $800 voucher for surrendering his seat, only to change his mind and re-board the aircraft when he found out he wouldn't be able to get to Louisville via air until the following day.

*IF* that is accurate, it changes the picture a bit...

What I don't get is IF he voluntarily got off the plane why was he let back on?

My huge issue with anything the airline says is that I really, really don't trust big business to tell the truth.

My friends father was a metallurgical engineer back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. He helped design/make/whatever the alloys that went into modern fighter aircraft. AT THAT TIME the company he worked for showed him and all the other folks working with the substances they were working with studies showing absolutely how safe and non-toxic those materials are.

Fast forward 30 years and he comes down with 20th century syndrome, allergic to anything and everything oil based. Yep, plastic, ink, everything. He didn't believe it had anything to do with what he was exposed to until his son-in-law started showing him reports of the toxicity of the very materials he was working with - studies that went back to the late 50's and early 60's. Classified, of course, at the time. He was never shown those studies.

So if I have one big company that is willing to poison it's own employees (or neighbors in the case of PG&E), how much of a stretch is it to believe another big company would lie to its employees just to keep morale up and spin the report in their favor???

I cannot say that is what United did, but I sure don't trust them until their sources are 100% verified. I have become very cynical that way. Politicians and big business are slimy and untrustworthy.

Regards,

Doug

 

[rob63]

Allegedly (and I say that because I've heard it from airline sources and cannot verify it myself), this in-cabin video was taken AFTER the good doctor voluntarily got off the jet and went to collect a $800 voucher for surrendering his seat, only to change his mind and re-board the aircraft when he found out he wouldn't be able to get to Louisville via air until the following day.

*IF* that is accurate, it changes the picture a bit...

FWIW, the woman who filmed the video had this to say about it, and she didn't mention anything about him getting off and back on before the incident:

"Thank you to all of the friends and friends of friends who shared my video of Dr. Dao before he was forcibly removed from our flight. For getting the word out that this passenger was no more "irate or belligerent" than any weary passenger after a long day of travel would be. He just wanted to go home, had to work the next day and did not feel it was right to have to give up his seat, a seat he was already sitting in upon the plane. The airline was not able to get him home until after 2 pm Monday afternoon. He was irritated as any passenger would be, questioning why he was chosen and explaining that he was a doctor and had patients to see in the morning. I was not concerned for my safety, nor that of my toddler's or for my pregnancy until the police were called aboard our plane to remove him. I was worried about what a physical altercation would entail with us sitting directly behind him and if the officers were armed in a tiny, confined space."

source: https://www.facebook.com/joya.griffin

According to ABC News, none of the other passengers have said anything about him getting off and getting back on.

"No passengers on the plane have mentioned that Dao did anything but refuse to leave the plane when he was ordered to do so.

Also Tuesday, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel called the way Dao was treated "completely unacceptable" and praised Aviation Commissioner Ginger Evans for taking "swift action." He promised that a city investigation would "ensure nothing like this ever happens again."

The event stemmed from a common air travel issue — a full flight. United was trying to make room for four employees of a partner airline, meaning four people had to get off.

At first, the airline asked for volunteers, offering $400 and then when that did not work, $800 per passenger to relinquish a seat. When no one voluntarily came forward, United selected four passengers at random.

Three people got off the flight, but the fourth said he was a doctor and needed to get home to treat patients on Monday. He refused to leave.

Three Aviation Department police officers got on the plane. Two officers tried to reason with the man before a third came aboard and pointed at the man "basically saying, 'Sir, you have to get off the plane,'" said Tyler Bridges, a passenger whose wife, Audra D. Bridges, posted a video on Facebook."

Source: United CEO issues apology, calls removal 'truly horrific' - ABC News

We will probably have to wait until there are court documents to find out the full details, but I'm not going to put much stock in unnamed airline sources at this point. There is video of the passenger somehow getting back on the plane after he had been dragged off, he still has a bloody face and is obviously confused and disoriented. I suspect that the story of him getting off the plane voluntarily is a twisted version of what happened after he had been dragged off.

Perhaps we will find out differently down the road, but considering that the source of the "he got off voluntarily" story is an unnamed airline source and none of the other passengers on the plane have ever mentioned it, I just don't find it credible.

 

[avboiler11]

We will probably have to wait until there are court documents to find out the full details, but I'm not going to put much stock in unnamed airline sources at this point.

I don't blame you, and is exactly why I offered the disclaimer and caveat of *IF*.

Frankly, I wish people would wait for more information to form judgements on just about everything, as context can change any number of situations...but that's not how social media works...

 

[Fargo]

This thread has gotten absurd. Both the airline that had him ejected and the law enforcement agency that did the ejecting have both said that they were wrong, apologized, changed policies and procedures, and said that they won't do it again. The law enforcement agency has specifically said that this was a customer service issue and that their people never should've gotten involved in the first place, which is what I've been trying to point out from the beginning of this thread.

Jeff Redding, deputy commissioner of safety and security for the city's Department of Aviation, told aldermen that operating procedures bar aviation officers from boarding a plane "if it's a customer service issue."
"If it is a customer-service related incident, then you don't need to board the plane at all," Redding said. "If there's no threat, there's no imminent threat or no charges being drawn, then you don't need to board the plane. There's no purpose for it."

Aldermen question whether aviation police had authority to act in United incident - Chicago Tribune

According to the other articles out there, they aren't even allowed to refer to themselves as police, and are being investigated for why they were wearing jackets that said police.


https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/201...izes-for-dragging-passenger-off-united-flight

Why the hell are a bunch of people on here trying to defend the actions of people who have already said that they were wrong? Why is there such a rush to suck up to the mall cops?

I also find it interesting that anyone on here thinks that the cash value of the lawsuit is that of the doctors damages. United has taken around $1 billion hit since it's recent high stock price, the value of the lawsuit to them is getting a NDA signed ASAP.

 

[T.Lex]

Why the hell are a bunch of people on here trying to defend the actions of people who have already said that they were wrong? Why is there such a rush suck up to the mall cops?

Politicians and corporate PR apologizing when its politically advantageous to do so?

No. Way.

 

[churchmouse]

So this is getting more clear as the MSM and social media spin gets put into perspective.

 

[Fargo]

Politicians and corporate PR apologizing when its politically advantageous to do so?

No. Way.

OK, so you want to rush to the defense of spineless cowards who won't stand up for what they believe is right? That's a totally better position.

 

[T.Lex]

OK, so you want to rush to the defense of spineless cowards who won't stand up for what they believe is right? That's a totally better position.

A) You're going to have to be WAY more specific on who the "spineless cowards" are in your scenario.

B) This was a logistical and regulatory mess (<------ understatement alert) that human beings caused, aggravated, and resolved.

C) To the extent I'm defending ANYTHING in this situation, it is the process. Whether UAL apologized or not, it appears there was a process that was followed. Objectively (or as close as we can come), that process appears rational and reasonable.

 

[Fargo]

A) You're going to have to be WAY more specific on who the "spineless cowards" are in your scenario.

B) This was a logistical and regulatory mess (<------ understatement alert) that human beings caused, aggravated, and resolved.

C) To the extent I'm defending ANYTHING in this situation, it is the process. Whether UAL apologized or not, it appears there was a process that was followed. Objectively (or as close as we can come), that process appears rational and reasonable.

What is the rational and reasonable process you are referring to?