"Two to the chest, one to the head" Really?

[mercop]

Anyone who has been around any kind of pistol training has heard this one. But try as I might, I am unable to find a documented situation where a law enforcement officer or citizen has accomplished it with a pistol.



For years the FBI has told us that police involved shootings take place at 3-5 feet in 3-5 seconds with 3-5 rounds fired. Of course this information is much harder to gather for shootings involving citizens, but let’s just say for the sake of argument that they are close to the same numbers.


Here is our setting; our good guy is approached by a bad guy in a parking lot. The BG tries to rob him at knife point from say 10 feet away. Our GG is able to draw his concealed pistol, fire two rounds to the chest, and then consciously transition to the head. The BG is no doubt going to be moving in some way in reaction to the furtive action of the GG drawing his pistol.


If this is accomplished, I have two questions for the GG-


1) Have you received firearms training and did it involve you training to fire two rounds to the chest and one to the head?


2) Did you consciously fire two rounds at the chest and then consciously transition to the head for the last shot”?



I set our GG up for success. The BG is not running at him or shooting at him and is twice the distance where we understand these encounters to occur.
Over the last 8-10 years, I have been doing extensive force on force training using airsoft with police and citizens. I would guess that all of the police at some time in their career have been taught “two to the chest and one to the head”. For the citizens, it is a mixed bag of previous training so I won’t ponder a guess as to who has been taught that.



A conservative estimate of how many had been involved in previous force on force training would be about 30% for the police, with the majority using Simmunitons. That is problematic since according to Simmunations safety protocol you cannot shoot within 7 yards. You know where shootings actually occur. For the citizens, I would say it is less than 5%.
Here are some common observations during a spontaneous “gunfight” that starts from furtive movement and not a buzzer or whistle-


No shooters reported being able to close one eye during the fight.


No shooters reported being able to “use” their sights.


Shooters report firing the majority of their rounds before their gun was between their eyes and the threat, making it physically impossible to use the sights.


Some students reported being able to “see” their sights towards the end of the fight.


The majority of rounds struck the BG in the torso, many struck the hands and arms because they were holding the weapon between their torso and the other shooter.


We have had a few head shots. Several have been contact shots or close to it. I have never had a student say that they purposely aimed for the head after putting two rounds in the chest.


In the past, some detractors of mine have stated that my students not being able to make these head shots are a reflection on my instruction. That is impossible because I don’t teach head shots at all. Actually, I believe quite the opposite is true. The people who turn up at MCS classes are motived enough to spend valuable time and money training. There is no way of knowing, but I think that they are the in the minority when it comes to those who carry firearms and their amount of training. As described earlier, less that 5% of the citizens have previous force on force training.


Something else that is unfortunately common in all things is throwing the dart and then drawing a bulls eye around it. For example, I have a close friend who shot and killed a robbery suspect when the suspect drew down on him. My buddy fired several shots using vertical tracking, the last of which center punched the suspect right between the eyes. My buddy, an academy classmate of mine, is an excellent shooter, but when I asked about the shooting he could only say that he started shooting low and tracked up. Several people would tell others, except internal affairs, that the last round went right where they aimed.


This I believe is where the familiar “two to the chest, one to the head” mantra came from. I know it was originally started by Col Cooper after hearing about a shooting overseas. If someone knows more, let me know. Please also let me know if the Col was involved in any force on force training. I am not trying to be disrespectful, but there are a lot of things I can pull off on the square range against cardboard that I would not try on the street much less teach.


I am also looking for stories within the US of officers or citizens, after being trained to do so, actually fired “two to the chest, and one to the head” with a pistol.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Again, GREAT snippet!!

I've been trying to add some form of point shooting to me shooting exercises. I abhor the idea of "well, I only need 5 rounds b/c the STATS say it will end under that". Also, the idea of putting the target out at 7 yards and saying "that's the average" is setting folks up to get their gun taken by the BG. Most gun owners aren't shooters and prefer witty or easy to mimick sayings like "two to the chest and one above the vest", "give peace a chance" and "Yes we can". Heck, when I got jumped the second time, I didn't even remember opening my knife!! (fortunately, I did...) Don't have time if they are upon you to aim or go Weaver or try to remember what condition color you are now (another gripe I have with some trainers).

Ditch the mantras, forget the color coding and react to violence with violence!

 

[blamecharles]

My training was in the military and to be honest i was a M1A1 tank crewman. Our trainers all trained us in home defense(marksman training)/ bar fight(hand to hand) situations. These made more sense to us as if we were off the tank it meant we weren't moving/ ran out of main gun 120 mm rounds, .50 cal heavy barrel machine gun and 7.62 machine gun as well as the 1 M16 we carried on the tank. If we were down to M9 on foot that meant we were screwed anyways. So more to the point we were trained to move about at home, how to enter doorways, move to cover and basic shooting stance. Hell i can remember one of my Drill Sgt.s firing his handgun gangster style. He even looked the part. This was July 95 for time reference. I was also the only member of our Tank Battalion to qualify with the 203 grenade launcher.

 

[youngda9]

Practically anything can be accomplished through training. The simple fact is that most people aren't training this, and it definetly isn't being trained enough to engrain it into their muscle memory so that it becomes automatic during a FOF encounter when the adrenaline hits...as your data shows.

It's a great concept. Put 2 shote Hi-COM to disable the attacker. If that doesn't work, don't continue to do the same thing...that is the definition of insanity. Do something different and more effective. Put one in the head.

Probably doesn't happen much in real life because people focus on COM and that tends to work well.

 

[SSGSAD]

I don't know where it started, but it seems that I remember "something" about a "shooting" I think involving LEO, and he put several rounds into the bg chest and the bg killed the officer... It was "later determined" that the bg had on a vest ... hence the saying two to the chest, and one above the vest ..... IIRC ..... don't know, too long ago .... I do it all the time ..... AT THE RANGE ..... without "proper" training, and sometimes with "proper" training, NO ONE really knows what they are going to do, when the SHTF ..... but in MY experience, training usually takes over ....

 

[jeremy]

Well Said George! Well Said!

 

[T.Lex]

I just search the internet.

Mozambique Drill:
Mozambique Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A bit of a clarification:
The Gun Zone -- Firearms Lore

I've always wondered about the Mozambique drill, too, in the sense that even if the BG was stationary when the first two shots were fired, he'd probably be moving at least a little bit by the third. So, I'm also interested in any "real world" experiences with the actual technique.

I've always thought it was more of a training tool to get people to think about getting some shots downrange FAST in a sort of suppressive-fire way. Get the BG thinking about dodging bullets to give time to maybe get off an aimed shot, and to break contact.

 

[kingnereli]

If you don't teach head shots and your students can't make head shots it is a reflection of your training. This "mantra" is very fluid. Two to the chest one to the head is for training. Shooting at the largest part of the torso unless a reasonable head shot presents itself is for fighting. You don't force a head shot.


As for your desire to see documentation of this training playing out, how would a person possibly assemble enough accounts to be statistically convincing? To fit your criteria we would have to find a news or police report that included the location of all the wounds and we would have to know the specific training background of the shooter. All I know is that it is possible in force on force with as much stress as a pretend gunfight can muster.

 

[rockhopper46038]

My understanding is that it came from the civil wars in Mozambique as well.

 

[youngda9]

All these extra shots are not required if one uses a .45...only for 9mm.

 

[ryanbr]

As I was taught the 2 to the chest, 1 to the head was the Fail to stop drill, it was taaught to transiton to the head if shooting in chest "center of mass" didnt work. Such as the previous post where the BG had on a vest.

I cant disagree with the OP's origional post. I agree with him on how plays out most of the time. But if Bad guy dont stop and your hitting him you need to shoot somewhere else and should be trying to distance yourself from him, hopefully neing able to use sights and make a head shot. I know sounds easier than it is in the real thing.

 

[cbseniour]

Just my usual unacceptible opinion. Most training advises shoot to stop the threat. We know that to use deadly force you must be " in fear for your life". Ergo it seems that most cops and courts would find that if you were well enough in control of your emotions and reactions to carefully place the third round to the head perhaps you were not truely in fear for your or someone else life.
I personally like to old farmer who asked why he shot to burglar 15 times resonded " that's all my gun holds"

 

[youngda9]

How are these training BGs told to respond when hit with airsoft rounds?

• Stop the attack immediately
• Drop weapon if hit in the arm that carries it
• Continue until hit 2 times COM
• Stop when hit in the CNS
• Run at the sight of a weapon

 

[indykid]

It works nicely in theory and on paper and when typed on the internet, but when the adrenaline starts to flow in the biggest gush of hormones a person has ever had, all bets are off.

Great post mercop!!!!!!!!!

 

[mercop]

Here is what I teach. Having been involved in a shooting and talked to many others who have, some who are very close friends, I don't believe that during a spontaneous shooting within seven yards you can fire two to the chest, and then say to yourself he is not stopping I better fire a round at his head, or while you and the BG are both moving fire two to the chest and one to the head right away using your sights. Maybe it could be done if either you or the bag guy were standing still.

As I have covered before the armed citizen is not very likely to get the opportunity to "draw down" on a bad guy and issue verbal commands. It is more likely that their rounds will be fired right after they clear the holster.

I explain it like this- look at the human body as a highway with three exits taking you to Survival Town. The first is the pelvic girdle, second is the chest, the third is the head. If you concentrate on the chest, and the head, and miss your exits you will have to turn around.

Instead I advocate shooting one handed as soon as the barrel of the gun gets between you and the threat. These first rounds because of the rising of the gun will most likely first strike the upper legs and pelvic girdle. This causes what I call a ballistic ball tap. It forces the chest and head forward making your COM bigger. It may also allow subsequent rounds to hit the top of the head, behind the clavicle, and as they continue forward the spine.

This is accomplished with minimal training and provides the shooter with a better ability to move than rushing to a two handed grip which tends to glue them in place, or if they move it is usually straight back into unknown territory.- George

 

[Birds Away]

Please also let me know if the Col was involved in any force on force training.

According to his biography, as well as other sources, the late Col. Cooper was a combat veteran of the Korean "conflict". His CQB techniques were based, at least partly, upon his personal experience. As was stated previously in this thread, "two to the chest and one above the vest" is a reference to shifting targets if you don't get a stop.

 

[Indy Wing Chun]

I've heard it typically called the "Drug & Armor drill" in reference to a tweaked BG or an armored BG (or both!). While I totally agree with the OPs assessment, couldn't it be looked at from a conceptual point of view? The D & A drill is teaching you to fire aimed shots that stop the BG, and not to just fire blindly. Point shooting or sighted shooting is still "aimed" shooting. So, even though you may not get the dbl tap to the chest, one to the head, you will want to fire on your target while tracking as much as possible.

Granted, this is MUCH easier said than done when incorporating FOF scenarios and I know I'm NOOOOOOOO expert at it. Just a thought.

 

[Disposable Heart]

biggest thing I think he was going for was when you are faced with a more REALISTIC threat (less than 5 yards away), aiming is moot, fire until the guy gets the heck away from you or you are away from them. Any further than that (say, office shooter stalking from cubicle to cubicle) and you have 10+ yards, the Mozambique still has some merit. But, problem is most folks that do not take training focus primarily on fixed target, distances of 7 yards + with a target that is full front.

For a total, "fluid" world, sights still have use, but limited to further ranges...

 

[bwframe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-xIssgT-o&feature=related

 

[Dead Duck]

Guys are making this way too technical.
The head shot comes first. Then followed by the chest shots to make it look good for court. Nobody but you really knows in which order they came.

If he's still moving,(convolutions) it may be necessary to also empty your magazine and grab your spare. Just to be safe.

At this point, shooters remorse usually sets in. To feel better you could try CPR by sitting on his chest and bouncing until to gurgling stops or [STRIKE]the coroner[/STRIKE] help arrives. At least you tried. This keeps your hands from getting all messy.

Train all you want and remember that you are in fear for your life and need to stop the threat with whatever means you have at hand without collateral damage.