Turning "low tier" AR into "good enough"

[Dolton916]

Also: it ain't the bike, it's the motor.

And there's nothing like listening to the DD snob tell your 14 year old son shooting a $550 Oracle that maybe one day he could afford a "Real Weapon" and then being outshot by the kid and his crap gun!

My son won a box of ammo and saw a real life example of a family saying,

"Owning a scalpel does not make you a surgeon"

Which is better, shooting your OK gun or sitting home dreaming of the gun you want. Shoot what you got until you can get you want.

 

[Destro]

rollmarks mean nothing....unless your a fan of superior materials and quality control. If you don't mind inferior materials and questionable QC then have at it.

 

[Destro]

Which is better, shooting your OK gun or sitting home dreaming of the gun you want.

I, personally, would rather keep dreaming about what I want rather than buy something I don't.

 

[rhino]

As others have the alluded, the primary difference between the cheap rifles and the rifles the cool kids buy is in the level of QA/QC. All of them are capable of making great weapons, and all are capable of letting a lemon out the door. If you have a rifle without a name on it that makes your proud, just test it thoroughly and honestly. Don't make any excuses for it like "it probably would have worked better with good ammo," etc. If it works, it works, and you got lucky. If not, take measures to get a functional weapon (which could be upgrades, repairs, modifications, or a new rifle).

 

[Vigilant]

And there's nothing like listening to the DD snob tell your 14 year old son shooting a $550 Oracle that maybe one day he could afford a "Real Weapon" and then being outshot by the kid and his crap gun!

My son won a box of ammo and saw a real life example of a family saying,

"Owning a scalpel does not make you a surgeon"

Which is better, shooting your OK gun or sitting home dreaming of the gun you want. Shoot what you got until you can get you want.

Just as there is nothing like listening to an Oracle/Olympic/DPMS owner make excuses at a 3-day several hundred round course as to why his low quality rifle went down under use, and having to borrow an LMT snobs back-up rifle so he could get through the REST of day one, not to mention the entire course!

 

[avboiler11]

Just as there is nothing like listening to an Oracle/Olympic/DPMS owner make excuses at a 3-day several hundred round course as to why his low quality rifle went down under use, and having to borrow an LMT snobs back-up rifle so he could get through the REST of day one, not to mention the entire course!

I am honestly curious...what type of failures have you witnessed from those rifles?

 

[Ruffnek]

Good input so far guys.I think a new buyer/owner can learn a lot from this one,which was my goal.I was in this spot once and I made the choice to upgrade what I have.I'm happy with my rifle.

 

[SSGSAD]

The only thing you need to worry about outside of the action is the ability to mount a light and see your POA. There's lots of us on here that humped a rifle all day every day for years, and I think most of us got on with KISS. The more crap you hang on a rifle the more you have to take care of, work around, and commit to muscle memory.

What you really need to spend time and treasure on is making sure that when you pull the trigger, everything between your finger and the bullet itself is going to do its job. Make sure your trigger is smooth enough to control and know when it's going to break. In combat, you're not going to pay any attention at all to how heavy/crisp the pull is, just that it went *bang* when you expected it to or not. If you have a good bolt that you don't have worries about lugs cracking, a buffer that doesn't sometimes cycle not quite right, and ammo that doesn't leaves your action in Dirtchtown, you're pretty much good.

If some snob sh*ts on your rifle for what's rollmarked on it, who gives a f*ck? Don't try to talk them out of it or show them up, just do your thing. HD, SD, hunting, target shooting, plinking, whatever. If it works, it works.

THIS, EXACTLY !!!!! This is what I have been thinking, since I started reading this thread !!!!!

If YOU, are HAPPY, with what you have. Then don't worry, be HAPPY !!!!!

You decided to buy an AR-15, who cares if it doesn't measure up to what anybody says on the internet.

If you are looking for advice, then you are in the right place .....

When I buy a gun, I save up my money, I usually have my mind already made up.

Have done my due diligence, and drop the cash, and go shoot .....

Do what YOU want to do, and don't worry about what I, or anyone else says .....


JUST DO IT !!!!!

 

[Destro]

I am honestly curious...what type of failures have you witnessed from those rifles?

I have never seen one because I've never been in a class where those types of rifles were used. Past instructors, however, have been adamant not to bring a low quality rifle.

 

[avboiler11]

I have never seen one because I've never been in a class where those types of rifles were used. Past instructors, however, have been adamant not to bring a low quality rifle.

But WHY not bring a "low quality rifle"?

There is value in knowing the specific deficiencies people have personally observed (or even better, experienced) in a "low quality rifle" that lead to the rifle going down...otherwise we're simply left with the all-too common game of internet forum telephone where something gets told, then told again, then posted and read on the internet, then believed as gospel (example of this: 75/77gr bullets will not stabilize in a 1:9 barrel).

I would expect a majority of failures to be related to bolt issues that could be easily remedied with a quality MPI bolt and/or complete BCG...but then again, I've never personally been to a carbine class let alone witnessed a failure on of these supposed wastes of black plastic.

 

[Destro]

But WHY not bring a "low quality rifle"?

There is value in knowing the specific deficiencies people have personally observed (or even better, experienced) in a "low quality rifle" that lead to the rifle going down...otherwise we're simply left with the all-too common game of internet forum telephone where something gets told, then told again, then posted and read on the internet, then believed as gospel (example of this: 75/77gr bullets will not stabilize in a 1:9 barrel).

I would expect a majority of failures to be related to bolt issues that could be easily remedied with a quality MPI bolt and/or complete BCG...but then again, I've never personally been to a carbine class let alone witnessed a failure on of these supposed wastes of black plastic.

Because nobody is going to spend $500 on the class, $400 in lodging, $200 in incidental expenses, and another $500-800 in ammo...plus a weekend or time off work to get to a class and have a rifle fail on the morning of the second day because they wanted to save $50 on a BCG. Because their feed ramps were not cut correctly, because the jammed the gas tube in like a coat hanger.

75/77 grain bullets will not stabilize reliably in a 1:9 twist. This is not a game...if somebody has a serious need to shoot bullets that heavy they should not be buying such a slow twist. Telling somebody this is doing them a disservice.

If your looking for a rifle to plink with on the farm and range....buy a DPMS and have fun with it. Don't get a case of the hurt feelings when people will not agree with you when you start talking about self defense or some other need.

 

[avboiler11]

75/77 grain bullets will not stabilize reliably in a 1:9 twist.

Yes, they will.

Even at sea level and 0F, the longest of the three common AR-friendly HPBTs (the 77gr SMK) has a stability factor of 1.17 at the pedestrian speed of 2400fps through a 1:9 barrel. Yes, this is considered "marginal" but anything above 1.00 is stable and I've had 75gr A-Max with a stability factor of 1.01 shoot 10-shot 0.6MOA groups at 200yd through a 1:9.

Is it "optimal"? No, its not. But will it work? Absolutely.

But if you've PERSONALLY seen keyholing from a 75/77 through a 1:9, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[Destro]

Yes, they will.

Even at sea level and 0F, the longest of the three common AR-friendly HPBTs (the 77gr SMK) has a stability factor of 1.17 at the pedestrian speed of 2400fps through a 1:9 barrel. Yes, this is considered "marginal" but anything above 1.00 is stable and I've had 75gr A-Max with a stability factor of 1.01 shoot 10-shot 0.6MOA groups at 200yd through a 1:9.

Is it "optimal"? No, its not. But will it work? Absolutely.

But if you've PERSONALLY seen keyholing from a 75/77 through a 1:9, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[Vigilant]

I am honestly curious...what type of failures have you witnessed from those rifles?

From one course, 2 different guy and guns. Rifle #1 DPMS factory built rifle (according to owner) smashed gas tube as Destro alluded to, along with improperly staked castle nut causing extension to back out far enough to lose the buffer detent and jam up the works pretty good. Rifle #2 Olympic Arms M4gery hammer pin shot out in course of fire deadlined rifle. That was one class, I've been to several others with similar results. To this point, I have never seen a quality rifle go down in a class? YMMV

 

[Vigilant]

Just to add, if all these other lower end ARs work "just as good" as DD, Noveske, Larue, and LMT, how's come those overpriced snob gun manufacturers are still in business and can't keep stock?

 

[88E30M50]

From one course, 2 different guy and guns. Rifle #1 DPMS factory built rifle (according to owner) smashed gas tube as Destro alluded to, along with improperly staked castle nut causing extension to back out far enough to lose the buffer detent and jam up the works pretty good. Rifle #2 Olympic Arms M4gery hammer pin shot out in course of fire deadlined rifle. That was one class, I've been to several others with similar results. To this point, I have never seen a quality rifle go down in a class? YMMV

I thought the whole point of this thread was to figure out what you need to do to a DPMS or other budget AR to bring it up to an acceptible reliability level. Stories of stock lower end rifles failing to make it through a class are why this thread exists, not evidence of why you need to buy high end rifles. Sure, stock rifles may struggle to get through a decent class but what about a rifle with the weak points addressed? If what you already have is a stock DPMS and you cannot afford to drop a grand or more in one shot on a replacement, what should your priority list be for parts to make your rifle more robust? Is it enough to verify that you do not have a crushed gas tube, replace the bolt and properly stake the gas key and castle nut? If not, then what else? FCG?

As I had said earlier, any parts you replace in your budget AR can move to a custom build when you save enough to go that route but in the mean time, what should your approach be?

 

[Vigilant]

I thought the whole point of this thread was to figure out what you need to do to a DPMS or other budget AR to bring it up to an acceptible reliability level. Stories of stock lower end rifles failing to make it through a class are why this thread exists, not evidence of why you need to buy high end rifles. Sure, stock rifles may struggle to get through a decent class but what about a rifle with the weak points addressed? If what you already have is a stock DPMS and you cannot afford to drop a grand or more in one shot on a replacement, what should your priority list be for parts to make your rifle more robust? Is it enough to verify that you do not have a crushed gas tube, replace the bolt and properly stake the gas key and castle nut? If not, then what else? FCG?

As I had said earlier, any parts you replace in your budget AR can move to a custom build when you save enough to go that route but in the mean time, what should your approach be?

it was until someone started to say things like " just as good as" when that is untrue. I personally don't give two shytes what FrankenAR someone operates, but by the time you replace enough parts on a sub-par rifle to make it "good enough", you've spent nearly the same, or more than it would have cost for a quality rifle from a proven company be it Larue, DD, Noveske, LMT, or Colt.

 

[Vigilant]

And as a side note, when someone thinks enough of their near gooder rifle to take it to a class that 10-15 others paid good money to train in, and that training time is constantly interrupted to diagnose, and repair that almost gooder blaster, I start to get rifle snobby!

 

[88E30M50]

And as a side note, when someone thinks enough of their near gooder rifle to take it to a class that 10-15 others paid good money to train in, and that training time is constantly interrupted to diagnose, and repair that almost gooder blaster, I start to get rifle snobby!

Again, we are slamming the low end rifles with no actual useful information. We are not talking 1911s here, where you pay top dollar for the skill of the craftsman that assembled and fit it, we are talking rifles that take little to no fitting during assembly. Other than the rollmark, what is the weak spot on a DPMS lower that cannot be overcome? Everything else just fits in and can be replaced over time. This is not about the cost, but about the process and priority of parts upgrade.

 

[avboiler11]

As best I can tell:

1. Quality bolt and properly staked bolt carrier
2. Ensuring castle nut is properly staked
3. Making sure gas tube isn't "smashed"

All very valid issues that make reliability of the platform suspect.