Trump 2024 — The second term

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  • jamil

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    I thought so you confused our form of republic with a democracy.
    You need to empty your cup and refill it with an open mind.
    I don't think I have a closed mind. But, I'm not going to ditch well established definitions for the sake of idology. I am not confusing republic with democracy. The two have specific meanings, and I am applying both words to describe the aspect of our government.

    We are a representative democracy because we have elections to choose our leaders. We are a republic because we don't have a king, etcetera. We are a constitutional republic because we have a constitution that prescribes our government and it's limitations.

    I've just used three terms that describes our form of government, all of which are accurate and approprite for their definitions.

    “We may define a republic to be … a government which derives all its powers directly or indirectly from the great body of the people; and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure, for a limited period, or during good behaviour.” - James Madison

    I guess that is a democracy to you right?
    No. That's the part that makes it a republic. Because powers are not derived from a sovereign entity, like a king, dictator, small group of powerful people, etcetera. It's derived from the people, which I have said many many times in this discussion. The part that makes us a representative democracy is the part where we have elections for the people who will hold offices for a limited period. The definitions I have applied fit that statement perfectly.

    I think what you are thinking is wrong.
    I have studied it out but from a totally different angle than you have. Does that make me wrong and you right?

    If you are using words outside of their definition, yes, it makes me right and you wrong. I don't need to be right. I'd be fine with it if you can show me some historical information that the definitions I've used are wrong.

    The angle you've studied it out with seems to be from excerpts of founders' statements, that supports your belief about what a republic is, and what a democracy is. But as I've shown you above, the definitions I've used fit that statement just fine. A republic has nothing to do with democracy or checks and balances in government, or whatever else. Except governments that have those features would tend to be republics. And republics tend to be democratic at least a little.

    Democracy isn't a bad word. It doesn't mean only direct democracy. Republic isn't mutually exclusive of democracy. I've given plenty of examples in history of republics that were also democracies. Even some that were direct democracies were also republics.

    If I thought you were right, I wouldn't keep repeating the same definitions. I'd just accept yours.
     

    DadSmith

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    I don't think I have a closed mind. But, I'm not going to ditch well established definitions for the sake of idology. I am not confusing republic with democracy. The two have specific meanings, and I am applying both words to describe the aspect of our government.

    We are a representative democracy because we have elections to choose our leaders. We are a republic because we don't have a king, etcetera. We are a constitutional republic because we have a constitution that prescribes our government and it's limitations.

    I've just used three terms that describes our form of government, all of which are accurate and approprite for their definitions.


    No. That's the part that makes it a republic. Because powers are not derived from a sovereign entity, like a king, dictator, small group of powerful people, etcetera. It's derived from the people, which I have said many many times in this discussion. The part that makes us a representative democracy is the part where we have elections for the people who will hold offices for a limited period. The definitions I have applied fit that statement perfectly.



    If you are using words outside of their definition, yes, it makes me right and you wrong. I don't need to be right. I'd be fine with it if you can show me some historical information that the definitions I've used are wrong.

    The angle you've studied it out with seems to be from excerpts of founders' statements, that supports your belief about what a republic is, and what a democracy is. But as I've shown you above, the definitions I've used fit that statement just fine. A republic has nothing to do with democracy or checks and balances in government, or whatever else. Except governments that have those features would tend to be republics. And republics tend to be democratic at least a little.

    Democracy isn't a bad word. It doesn't mean only direct democracy. Republic isn't mutually exclusive of democracy. I've given plenty of examples in history of republics that were also democracies. Even some that were direct democracies were also republics.

    If I thought you were right, I wouldn't keep repeating the same definitions. I'd just accept yours.
    That's a republic that's a democracy that's a republic that's a democracy.

    Make up your mind.

    Do we have a republic or a democracy?
     

    jamil

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    That's a republic that's a democracy that's a republic that's a democracy.

    Make up your mind.

    Do we have a republic or a democracy?
    Both.

    One describes where sovereignty comes from. A republic means that it's not from a king, etceterea. The other describes how leaders are given power. Through democratically elected representatives and executives, but the chief executive is elected indirectly through electors.
     

    jamil

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    I think the venue for tonight is like 10,000.

    I hope he packs it and It’s HUGE.
    Like I said, unless you're there, you probably won't know. Team D will claim only a few hundred showed up. Team Trump will claim 100K showed up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    But, I'll wager that it's closer to 10K than a few hundred.

    EDIT: unless angry mobs prevent people from showing up.
     
    Last edited:

    jamil

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    Agreed


    This we disagree on.
    As James Madison put it that is part of the function of a republic.
    Yes, because your posts seem to assert that a democracy is mutually exclusive to a republic. This is simply not true.

    Madison isn't incorrect, per se. Most modern republics have representative democracy. None of them have the three branches/checks-balances/electoral college. And I would say that these features are the things that set our government apart from others. They're not exclusively republican though.

    Regardless it has not been my argument to say that those unique features make us a democracy. The aspect of our system that makes us a representative democracy is that we elect our leaders, whether directly or not. It doesn't matter if Madison said so or not. Words apply or not because of their definitions, not because a founder used them in a certain way or not.
     

    jamil

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    Forward pass or lateral?
    I mean. Some lateral. Didn't Alfred take the crown from his brother? His nephew was pissed but fat lot of good that did. His nephew was a twit anyway. I'd have put the 'a' in there but ingo filters would object.
     

    BugI02

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    I mean. Some lateral. Didn't Alfred take the crown from his brother? His nephew was pissed but fat lot of good that did. His nephew was a twit anyway. I'd have put the 'a' in there but ingo filters would object.
    Not serious, just saw where you wrote 'passed his thrown' and thought immediately of football

    Edit: I'd reference a 'tight spiral', but it's a family friendly site, I'm told
     

    DadSmith

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    Yes, because your posts seem to assert that a democracy is mutually exclusive to a republic. This is simply not true.

    Madison isn't incorrect, per se. Most modern republics have representative democracy. None of them have the three branches/checks-balances/electoral college. And I would say that these features are the things that set our government apart from others. They're not exclusively republican though.

    Regardless it has not been my argument to say that those unique features make us a democracy. The aspect of our system that makes us a representative democracy is that we elect our leaders, whether directly or not. It doesn't matter if Madison said so or not. Words apply or not because of their definitions, not because a founder used them in a certain way or not.
    This is where our disagreement is.
    You associate voting in representatives as democracy. I see it as part of the function of our Constitutional Republic. So did the founders.
     

    jamil

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    This is where our disagreement is.
    You associate voting in representatives as democracy. I see it as part of the function of our Constitutional Republic. So did the founders.
    It's part of the constitution. It's a feature of our particular republic. But. It does make us a representative democracy.

    A republic does not require democracy. A republic can be a democracy. These are are just components of a government. There is nothing wrong with people referring to our nation as a democracy, because it is a representative democracy. There is nothing wrong with people referring to our nation as a republic. Because it is a republic. Both describe our government, because of the features of our government.

    We're a representative democracy, and a constitutional republic. We have popular, majority rules, votes for candidates, for elected offices. The only office we don't have popular votes for is president. States hold elections where majority popular vote decides which candidates electors get to vote for POTUS/VPOTUS.

    At least on paper. In reality, the president is decided by a cabal of elites who rig elections by changing rules to make voting most susceptible to cheating. Then they pay people to go out and bring in ballots. Most are female and have blue hair, and use their sexuality to influence young males to vote the way they want. So general elections are mostly a contest to see if the cheaters can generate more fake votes than the other side can get real ones.
     

    actaeon277

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    Meanwhile in Philadelphia Trump is preparing for a Rally in the “hood”.

    Why would you post that in the "Trump 2024" thread.
    Here, we just argue about stuff, and totally ignore what the other person said, even though we went to the trouble to quote it.

    There is no place here for Trump... in the Trump thread.
     

    jamil

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    Why would you post that in the "Trump 2024" thread.
    Here, we just argue about stuff, and totally ignore what the other person said, even though we went to the trouble to quote it.

    There is no place here for Trump... in the Trump thread.

    You're wrong. There is room for Trump in the Trump thread.


    Best regards,

    Have computer; Will argue
     

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