To show your weapons or not?

[churchmouse]

And some bad guys will shoot you out of hand as soon as they get the drop on you.

A survival axiom is "two is one, one is none". Try to have a backup sidearm and try REAL hard not to get ambushed. If you have to evacuate back home, you had probably better cultivate a functional paranoia until you're safely home.

The one time I read about a situation close to what you're envisioning, two families were evacuating ahead of Hurricane Katrina. They had extra fuel and water in the back of a pickup and the two men had to display their handguns to avoid having their extra fuel and water "liberated" by folks who hadn't prepared as well.

This will be more the norm than most folks want to believe. Desperation will drive people to do what ever it takes to survive. Katrina was and isolated (Confined to on geographical area) that stood to have assistance from outside resources. The stories that have emerged from that are a bit frightening. If there where to be a national or global event, well, you ain't seen nothing yet folks.

 

[.45 Dave]

This will be more the norm than most folks want to believe. Desperation will drive people to do what ever it takes to survive. Katrina was and isolated (Confined to on geographical area) that stood to have assistance from outside resources. The stories that have emerged from that are a bit frightening. If there where to be a national or global event, well, you ain't seen nothing yet folks.

This very true and I am not pointing this at you Blackhawk. You weren't suggesting this, but it bothers me how many people intimate that they would rather shoot first and ask questions later.

It is going to be up to each of us as to what they have to do to survive. However, if you're on the road walking (or in a field, or heading through a woods, whatever,) there is always a chance you'll be seen first. Not everyone is going to want your supplies. Some might naively be approaching just to get some information or possibly even to help (or just to find out what you're doing trespassing on their land.)
My point is you don't want to be blamming away at everyone you see until you're able to really size up the situation. Any one with any sense should realize that. Besides, gun shots might very well draw exactly the people you DO want to avoid, or a lynching party if you've shot a friendly farmer who was just looking to help.
Remember, not everyone is going to be out there looking for blood. You shouldn't be either, especially if things have just recently gone bad in the country and no one knows exactly what's happening. There is going to be a lot stunned people who won't know what's going on and aren't ready to start killing everyone. Be wary as a serpent, keep your wits about you, avoid people as much as possible and keep a backup weapon hidden, and keep your own fear in check!. Scared people do stupid things. But don't go terminator on anyone until you know there is a threat. That's my opinion.

 

[Tactical Flannel]

That more or less is exactly how I do it.

Just think in terms of driving through any possible LEO road blocks. Not that LEO's are going to be an issue but remember Katrina, they disarmed law abiding citizens. If you are armed and they want you not to be, now you are in a dangerous situation. Facing armed professionals OR traveling on unarmed yourself. Both options suck.

Practice out of sight out of mind.

Add a blanket big enough to cover your long gun. Also, use as small a long gun as possible. Put another holster up under your dash too that is way out of sight but you can get to from the drivers seat.

You see where this is going, you are going to need 2 handguns. Maybe "invest" in an SBR tax too.

Interesting thought how LEOs will be using roadblocks.

Wasn't there a federeal law enacted after Katrina that prevents the disarming of the citizens during a time of disaster? The law prevents law enforcement from going door to door to take legally possessed firearms if I recall correctly.

But I can't think of a reason why LEOs would have a roadblock that they are letting people through but not their firearms.
Now I can see them not allowing firearms into shelters, food/supply distribution points or hospitals during a time of crisis. But that is different than your thought of being disarmed and allowed to continue down the road.

Stay safe

 

[jeremy]

2 things...

1.) Learn to be the Grey Man...

2.) Pistols and shotguns are only good to fight your way to the rifle or carbine you should've had to start with...

 

[TiminMishawaka]

"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate." Sun Tzu

 

[bingley]

If SHTF I am bugging out back home. I am down in Indy for schooling and my home is 2-3 hours north in Wabash. I am currently building my BOB as of right now and building a few small preps here.

I drive a Durango and try to keep it fueld up so I would be able to make it back without stopping. But i am worried about being blocked or having the vehicle hijacked or something along those lines.

I can't tell what situations you're thinking of: are you worried about hijacking in general, or are you worried just about disasters? It sounds like you're thinking of bug out scenarios. It would be a good exercise to list the emergency scenarios along with the likelihood of each, and give a "security rating" to each.

For example, if a tornado hits your neighborhood, knocks out electricity and shuts down school, you may wish to bug out for a week. In that case, driving back home is no different from any other day. Carry what you normally carry. If, on the other hand, Indiana is the battlefield of four feuding warlords in World War 3, you'll have a very different situation in hand.

So my advice is make your scenarios concrete and specific before deciding what to do and how to arm yourself. If you don't do this, your weapons planning will be based on fear, not on fact. I think you'll discover that in most cases, not showing your weapons would be a good thing.

 

[ATM]

Carry the weapons openly.

Conceal the bacon.

 

[tacmedic]

It is my beliefe that if I were forced to abandon my vehicle while trying to leave the city, I would most definately keep the long gun. A glock or any hand gun for that matter will not provide you the same level of protection as a long gun. If you are concerned about attracting attention you might have to hold up during daylight hours and travel at night. In a situation such as this distance from a threat and time to react to it are important elements and your strategy should provide as much of both as possible. Hopefully you will be well north of 9th. and Alabama if something such as his occurs. Having time to think may keep you safe and alive.

 

[tacmedic]

Keep the long gun

I would not leave the long gun behind. If you are worried about attracting attention travel at night. The long gun and a good strategy will provide you with time and distance that will give you the best chance to make positive decisions.

 

[churchmouse]

I have researched the comment on the Grey man. It is the same tactics my uncles spoke of. It is a tactic worth learning.

 

[jeremy]

Be comfortable enough with your Weapons that they look like they should be there, and you don't have to conceal them as well.

 

[Zoub]

Interesting thought how LEOs will be using roadblocks.

Wasn't there a federeal law enacted after Katrina that prevents the disarming of the citizens during a time of disaster? The law prevents law enforcement from going door to door to take legally possessed firearms if I recall correctly.

But I can't think of a reason why LEOs would have a roadblock that they are letting people through but not their firearms.
Now I can see them not allowing firearms into shelters, food/supply distribution points or hospitals during a time of crisis. But that is different than your thought of being disarmed and allowed to continue down the road.

Stay safe

Just because you personally have not seen it or can not visualize it does not mean it does not exist.

Out of sight out of mind, E&E, Grey Man, Wallpaper, all the same thing. I practice it and test it to make sure I am not missing something that may be obvious to others.

How many LEO's in backwater USA or even Indy are fully aware of all Federal laws that protect your rights? How many will give a crap about those Federal laws in a SHTF situation if they are told to do otherwise by their superiors. All politics are local. I have a friend who was an LEO in NOLA during Katrina and had to testify in the "bridge" case, he is clean.. Also, I worked in NOLA in 2008, I would suggest you not rely on any laws being followed to your personal benefit.

Maps, knowledge and the ability to avoid a roadblock are good skills to have. The last one I dodged allowed me to get home in a few hours, where as coworkers of mine spent 8 hours driving in circles, all major routes were blocked, and then finally gave up and spent the night at homes of others or in hotels. It took them a full day to get home. That was in Indiana too.

 

[Tactical Flannel]

Just because you personally have not seen it or can not visualize it does not mean it does not exist.

Out of sight out of mind, E&E, Grey Man, Wallpaper, all the same thing. I practice it and test it to make sure I am not missing something that may be obvious to others.

How many LEO's in backwater USA or even Indy are fully aware of all Federal laws that protect your rights? How many will give a crap about those Federal laws in a SHTF situation if they are told to do otherwise by their superiors. All politics are local. I have a friend who was an LEO in NOLA during Katrina and had to testify in the "bridge" case, he is clean.. Also, I worked in NOLA in 2008, I would suggest you not rely on any laws being followed to your personal benefit.

Maps, knowledge and the ability to avoid a roadblock are good skills to have. The last one I dodged allowed me to get home in a few hours, where as coworkers of mine spent 8 hours driving in circles, all major routes were blocked, and then finally gave up and spent the night at homes of others or in hotels. It took them a full day to get home. That was in Indiana too.

Oh my...
I think this has gone a bit further than the original LEO road block where people can pass but without weapons.

No, I can't envision an Indiana LEO having a roadblock where people can continue on down the road but without their firearms. Please give me a plausible example.
Except as I cited in my previous post which would be check points for entry to hospitals, food/supply distribution sites and shelters, why would LEOs care or have the time to take firearms? Its Indiana. Everyone has firearms.

AS far as Hurricane Katrina of 2005, I too personally know of several LEOs from Indiana who went to the disaster area to assist. Some to New Orleans, some to Alabama, some to other points. And yes, there were more areas affected than just New Orleans. The firearm confiscation was a New Orleans cluster, not the rest of the multi state disaster area. And certainly no where any of the Indiana LEOs were, to my knowledge, was there firearm confiscation participation. Actually most Indiana LEOs before going stated they would not be involved in that. Period. No discussion. They were not taking a citizens legally possessed firearms. Some of the stories I got back first hand were of the Indiana LEOs giving advice to victims helping them to better deploy their personal defense tools for the victims' personal safety and the protecting of their property.

The New Orleans bridge shooting doesn't fit your original argument. That incident was several LEOs following an illegal order to use unwarranted lethal force. It wasn't a road block where weapon confiscation was going on, it was a road block preventing ALL passage.

As far as Indy cops not knowing the law, I think you don't give Indiana's LEOs enough credit. The vast majority of Indiana’s LEOs will do the right thing for the right reasons. LEOs cannot use the phrase,” I was just following orders” as a defense of an illegal act.
And going around a roadblock…. that’s up to each individual. But I suggest before doing that, you know why the roadblock is there. I’d hate to go around a roadblock to walk into a hazmat spill or something. To me, that would further ruin a bad day.

Stay safe

 

[Dorky_D]

Hey, I had a thought about concealing a rifle a bit. You could use one of those camping chair bags with the sholder strap. You may have to break down an AR or have a folding stock for your AK or whatever, but they could help you conceal a rifle and not look too tactical or obvious.

 

[jeremy]

Hey, I had a thought about concealing a rifle a bit. You could use one of those camping chair bags with the sholder strap. You may have to break down an AR or have a folding stock for your AK or whatever, but they could help you conceal a rifle and not look too tactical or obvious.

As I said earlier, Learn to be comfortable with the carry of your weapons. Most persons are clued to the fact that you are armed by the changes in ones posture. It is not uncommon for persons that are not fully comfortable with the idea of walking around with their firearms in public, to appear that they are skulking around.

Learn to be the grey man...
It does not mean that you have to be able to disguise your stuff so you blend in, maybe in the beginning, but with practice it is not needed...

 

[Zoub]

Oh my...
I think this has gone a bit further than the original LEO road block where people can pass but without weapons.

No, I can't envision an Indiana LEO having a roadblock where people can continue on down the road but without their firearms. Please give me a plausible example.

That is an odd thing to think or say. You need to give me a reason why you think human behavior in Indiana is different from any place in the country let alone the world?

Do you also assume all LEO's on a Local, State and Federal leval are law abiding citizens?

If you only plan for scenarios that fit your world today, you will get caught off guard. You see roadblocks in a very narrow, well defined way. As they are defined by you and your life experiences, not those who are running the roadblocks and controlling your movements.

I could point to a lot of my own life experiences but the simple fact remains, a roadblock can take on many forms and you can not drive faster than radios can communicate.

I think Jeremy says it best. Be comfortable. You can't be the Grey Man if your body language and verbal ques give you away to those who know what to look for. All you want to do is pass on by and continue on your way, without issue. Grey Man comes after out of sight out of mind is no longer an option.

As for your plausible example, just look at History. You boys can come into my town but you have to leave your guns here with me. That was in the 1800's when everyone was pro gun and had one. Look at border crossings into Mexico. Drive onto a secure military base.

One major problem Indiana has is it truly is the Crossroads of America. Put State maps of equal scale up on a wall and stand back. Indiana is a massive network of roads and small towns. People are everywhere. Each community has its own agenda.

Not all roadblocks will be run by LEO's either. Just ask the locals in any given area.

 

[Dorky_D]

As I said earlier, Learn to be comfortable with the carry of your weapons. Most persons are clued to the fact that you are armed by the changes in ones posture. It is not uncommon for persons that are not fully comfortable with the idea of walking around with their firearms in public, to appear that they are skulking around.

Learn to be the grey man...
It does not mean that you have to be able to disguise your stuff so you blend in, maybe in the beginning, but with practice it is not needed...

I do not believe my idea to be invalid, nor yours. My point was if you needed to set out on foot and walk to places where the people do not know you or where you would need to blend in. This could be a cheap and effective way to get you and your rifle (back pack and whatever else) from point A to B with little notice. If you put it in a gym bag as someone else suggested, it may be tempting to put other stuff in the gym bag and make it harder to get your gun out in a few seconds. I am not talking about a quick draw kind of access, but more of a use the quick access from your pistol to get you to cover where you can get to your rifle if you were surprised.

 

[Tactical Flannel]

That more or less is exactly how I do it.

Just think in terms of driving through any possible LEO road blocks. Not that LEO's are going to be an issue but remember Katrina, they disarmed law abiding citizens. If you are armed and they want you not to be, now you are in a dangerous situation. Facing armed professionals OR traveling on unarmed yourself. Both options suck...

Then it became...

That is an odd thing to think or say. You need to give me a reason why you think human behavior in Indiana is different from any place in the country let alone the world? Agreed. In crisis people will behave irrationally by the flight or fight. But using the examples of the Hurricane Katrina bridge shooting turned your argument from give us your weapons and you can pass to the actual event of none shall pass, go away.

Do you also assume all LEO's on a Local, State and Federal leval are law abiding citizens? In as much as the same percentage of accountants, doctors, bus drivers, school teachers and any other category of society is.

If you only plan for scenarios that fit your world today, you will get caught off guard. You see roadblocks in a very narrow, well defined way. As they are defined by you and your life experiences, not those who are running the roadblocks and controlling your movements.

I could point to a lot of my own life experiences but the simple fact remains, a roadblock can take on many forms and you can not drive faster than radios can communicate.

I think Jeremy says it best. Be comfortable. You can't be the Grey Man if your body language and verbal ques give you away to those who know what to look for. All you want to do is pass on by and continue on your way, without issue. Grey Man comes after out of sight out of mind is no longer an option.

As for your plausible example, just look at History. You boys can come into my town but you have to leave your guns here with me. That was in the 1800's when everyone was pro gun and had one. Look at border crossings into Mexico. Drive onto a secure military base. So people don't have the right to restrict access to their homes, their territory or their property that could be taken by force of strangers coming in? So strangers can walk armed into your home? Using your example, albeit somewhat exagerated, United States citizens shouldn't be able to restrict North Korea from flying over our country with a bomber carrying a nuke? Or Mexican drug cartels from crossing the border at will with their army of men and weapons? Surely you can't mean that?

One major problem Indiana has is it truly is the Crossroads of America. Put State maps of equal scale up on a wall and stand back. Indiana is a massive network of roads and small towns. People are everywhere. Each community has its own agenda.

Not all roadblocks will be run by LEO's either. Just ask the locals in any given area. But in your intial statement, it was a roadblock manned by LEOs wanting to take your guns like in Katrina... I don't remember hearing of such a roadblock. The bridge shooting was a tragedy but it wasn't a confisication issue. It was a none shall pass issue.

As a closer to home and more recent example: Henryville of last month and the severe tornado damage. LEOs from around the state went there to keep the worst of our society from looting the damaged homes. The LEOs manned roadblocks and roving patrols preventing non-residents from entering neighborhoods without ID (drivers license with their home address on it,etc...). I didn't hear of any weapon confiscations from legal possessing citizens? Did you?
Once again I've talked first hand with several of the LEOs that went down there and were there for several days at a time.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.
In a SHTF scenario, I believe LEOs won't put up roadblocks to take weapons. I do believe they will have check points that will deny access to such things as shelters, hospitals, food/supply distribution centers if you are armed. Obviously those places are easy 'flash' points for violence when scared people make poor decisions.

Regardless, stay safe.

 

[jeremy]

I do not believe my idea to be invalid, nor yours. My point was if you needed to set out on foot and walk to places where the people do not know you or where you would need to blend in. This could be a cheap and effective way to get you and your rifle (back pack and whatever else) from point A to B with little notice. If you put it in a gym bag as someone else suggested, it may be tempting to put other stuff in the gym bag and make it harder to get your gun out in a few seconds. I am not talking about a quick draw kind of access, but more of a use the quick access from your pistol to get you to cover where you can get to your rifle if you were surprised.

I didn't mean to make it sound like your idea was invalid or poor.

 

[churchmouse]

Everyone sees a SHTF scenario through a different set of eyes and base their opinions on there personal beliefs and experiences. My view will not perfectly match yours as my faith in folks in general is not the highest. A local disaster that the whole world is watching offers very little in what things would be truly like in a national or world wide collapse. What these small (By no means diminishing the importance) and localized catastrophe's do show us is the need to keep the creeps at bay. When the southport area here in Indy was hit by a tornado a few years back the looting was far worse than the news led you to believe. I was involved with getting the refrigeration at the schools back up and running and had several discussions with the LEO's at the road blocks. The creeps I mentioned would park up and away from the area and hike in after dark and run amok. No, they did not disarm anyone but it was very easy to gain access to this area without ID.
Then you have to think about this, is the road block ahead of you actually LEO. Did some group of local creeps grab up some cruisers or radio cars and put on a uniform. What better way to put you at ease and scope your goods. If the world is tipped upside down, the creeps are capable of anything...