Thoughts on School Gun Laws?

[ArmedProgrammer]

LoneWolf -

As a parent of a child who has directly been threatened, may I offer some pointers and observations.

1) I would love to see teachers WHO CHOOSE TO be legally able to be armed. Like everyone else who carries, I believe that that they should take it seriously and not just be Johnnie Jackass with a gun on his hip.

FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN BEING ARMED:

If you want to prevent these situations, here are some lessons that I learned:

Several of the teachers that I consider heroes from the situation we were involved in did things that made a difference. We as parents did some things that made a difference too. Here's a few things we learned.
1) Be VERY observant of the children that you teach. One of the teachers spotted some of the alarming behavior and was very concerned at the stalking and other weirdness that he was seeing IN A STUDENT THAT WAS AN HONOR STUDENT AND VERY BRIGHT. Even bright students can get out of whack.

2) Importantly - teachers on several occasions saw something AND SPOKE UP. It would have been so easy for them to have brushed off the warning signs. They spoke up. And thank God they did.

3) Importantly each one of these teachers taking action independently of each other documented the pattern that allowed the school district to take action when things got really ugly and direct threats were made on Facebook, etc. The point is - if they hadn't taken action before, it would have been MUCH harder to deal with. Because these teachers saw things clearly and didn't choose to ignore things - problems were hopefully averted.

4) Remember that while some school administrators mean well, they are so bound by idiotic rules that they are worse than worthless in these situations. In our case, things were escalating, verbal threats had happened, stalking was happening. And yet the administration didn't feel that they could discuss with the teachers the exact nature of the threats, due to privacy and other iguana concerns. That's a fact, I saw it with my own eyes. The teachers were being sent into harm's way WITHOUT being even given a clue. LESSON TO PARENTS: Assume NOTHING! We asked all of our daughters teachers to meet with us in a conference room during a break between classes. They were kind enough to do so. We quickly and in reasonable terms, laid out the issues at hand. We explained why we were concerned and the exact nature of the threats. This was BEFORE the threats escalated and student were removed from the school. We established this relationship of trust as soon as we realized that there was a problem. The teachers took this seriously, and their actions in the end averted the situation (for now) before it went "unthinkable". LESSON TO TEACHERS: Do not assume that the administration has their head on straight, not that you are being fed straight information. Many times you do not have the whole picture. When in doubt, ask questions - and ask it of the parents... The one thing that we cannot afford in these situations is for each of us to ASSUME that other knows what is going on. Those kind of Sins of Assumption are what get people killed.

5) Parents (and others) if you see a kid on Facebook or other social media spouting lyrics or ideas that sounds dangerous or self destructive or threatening - THEY ARE. Please , I beg you, take this seriously! These are cries for help. There are now a bunch of people in Ohio that are searching their soul... asking "what would have happened if I had recognized that facebook post for what it was...." Please for heaven's sake take it seriously.

There are several teachers that I will be eternally grateful to for doing exactly what I described above. by taking action and having their head on straight - the situation got turned before The Last Resort was necessary. And THAT is the ultimate hope and prayer that we all have. That by using our heads and intelligence, we never have need of the last resort that we carry.

 

[LoneWolf2554]

Armedprogrammer
I am sorry that you had to deal with that situation, and from what it sounds like, far to long. There are too many administrations that want to try to sweep things under a rug, or just want to flat out ignore for one reason or another.
Being friends with students on Facebook and social media is something that I have found a lot of schools and camps have tried to steer their workers away from. I find it as a great tool to get a glimpse into my students' lives. There are things they will post on there that they would never talk to me about. This helps me keep an active eye on different behaviors or trends in their lives.
I like that you brought up the factors that lead up to these events and how the educators and other people can try to stop the violent actions of others. All of that is HIGHLY important. The point of this thread was to ask about that "last line of defense"

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I think we agree on the stuff that leads up to trouble. Whether a teacher should be on Facebook or no - I'm not that big one way or the other. But when the warning signs are seen - for heaven's sake say something, take some action. Don't let it slide.

As I said that the start, I think teachers should be able to arm themselves IF THEY CHOOSE TO. They are no different than programmers or farmers or mechanics or bankers. All have the right to arm themselves for the defense of their life and those they are responsible for. I would encourage them to take additional training due to the nature of their place of work. Likewise, I would encourage an airline pilot who chose to be armed, to get specialized training in how to use it effectively in their working environment. This is less critical in some occupations, as the normal proximity of other people varies. For example, a farmer, as a rule , does not have the same concerns, that a pilot or bus driver or a teacher would have. This training should be by choice in my opinion, not mandated. But I'm also of the opinion that schools should be free market and by choice as well....

 

[Goober135]

LoneWolf -

As a parent of a child who has directly been threatened, may I offer some pointers and observations.

1) I would love to see teachers WHO CHOOSE TO be legally able to be armed. Like everyone else who carries, I believe that that they should take it seriously and not just be Johnnie Jackass with a gun on his hip.

FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN BEING ARMED:

If you want to prevent these situations, here are some lessons that I learned:

Several of the teachers that I consider heroes from the situation we were involved in did things that made a difference. We as parents did some things that made a difference too. Here's a few things we learned.
1) Be VERY observant of the children that you teach. One of the teachers spotted some of the alarming behavior and was very concerned at the stalking and other weirdness that he was seeing IN A STUDENT THAT WAS AN HONOR STUDENT AND VERY BRIGHT. Even bright students can get out of whack.

2) Importantly - teachers on several occasions saw something AND SPOKE UP. It would have been so easy for them to have brushed off the warning signs. They spoke up. And thank God they did.

3) Importantly each one of these teachers taking action independently of each other documented the pattern that allowed the school district to take action when things got really ugly and direct threats were made on Facebook, etc. The point is - if they hadn't taken action before, it would have been MUCH harder to deal with. Because these teachers saw things clearly and didn't choose to ignore things - problems were hopefully averted.

4) Remember that while some school administrators mean well, they are so bound by idiotic rules that they are worse than worthless in these situations. In our case, things were escalating, verbal threats had happened, stalking was happening. And yet the administration didn't feel that they could discuss with the teachers the exact nature of the threats, due to privacy and other iguana concerns. That's a fact, I saw it with my own eyes. The teachers were being sent into harm's way WITHOUT being even given a clue. LESSON TO PARENTS: Assume NOTHING! We asked all of our daughters teachers to meet with us in a conference room during a break between classes. They were kind enough to do so. We quickly and in reasonable terms, laid out the issues at hand. We explained why we were concerned and the exact nature of the threats. This was BEFORE the threats escalated and student were removed from the school. We established this relationship of trust as soon as we realized that there was a problem. The teachers took this seriously, and their actions in the end averted the situation (for now) before it went "unthinkable".

5) Parents (and others) if you see a kid on Facebook or other social media spouting lyrics or ideas that sounds dangerous or self destructive or threatening - THEY ARE. Please , I beg you, take this seriously! These are cries for help. There are now a bunch of people in Ohio that are searching their soul... asking "what would have happened if I had recognized that facebook post for what it was...." Please for heaven's sake take it seriously.

There are several teachers that I will be eternally grateful to for doing exactly what I described above. by taking action and having their head on straight - the situation got turned before The Last Resort was necessary. And THAT is the ultimate hope and prayer that we all have. That by using our heads and intelligence, we never have need of the last resort that we carry.

I definitely agree with nearly all of what you said. Teachers and parents definitely need to be more proactive. If any of you remember back in 2004, when a student at Valparaiso High School, who brought a machete and tree saw to school, and began slashing other students, I was a junior at that very school. Never in a million years did I think I'd end up in a scenario like that. Luckily, no one was killed, but I find it awful it had to come to that kind of violence. My only disagreement comes from your 5th point. Although I do agree that threats on any type of social media should be taken seriously, it is very easy to take it "too far". When I was younger, I was kind of "emo". I can remember putting up lyrics from songs or writing entries on LiveJournal (kudos to anyone who remembers that) which might have set off some alarms, but were entirely harmless. Kids are full of a lot of emotion, having to deal with the daily social interactions, stereotypes, etc... Now by no means am I advising anyone to disregard warning signs like that, but you cannot just jump to immediate conclusions. You really need to look into if a kid is just venting some emotional frustration, was having a bad day, looking for attention, or truly crying out for help.

 

[Bill of Rights]

As I've said before it is a nightmare or mine, and I hope that day never has to come for anyone anywhere again. Sadly we don't live in that perfect dream world.

Goober: That is why training for those who want to carry at school would be needed. If you're going to pull your weapon in a school, you'd better damn well be sure you know what you're going to hit.

Hold on. Is that risk different from a mall or a theater or a restaurant or a playground? If so, why? Because the majority of the bystanders/potential victims of the shooter are schoolchildren? Their lives may be the future, but they're of no more or less value than those of the mall patrons, the diners at the restaurant, or the possibly school-age, possibly preschool children on the playground. We need to get away from the idea that a school is any different from anywhere else. It's a different place for the BGs only because they know no one there can fight back. Remove that protection for the BGs and the school is just like anywhere else.

First off college is a completely different story because the students are all of legal age to have a ltch. And there is no need to take away their rights simply because they choose to better educate themselves. ...

Wait, so it's different because all of the students are of legal age? Every HS senior who has turned 18 is of legal age. Is there a need to take away their rights? Especially when they are compelled by law to be there?

The law, if it's ever introduced and taken seriously by our legislature, will probably disallow students in the school from carrying, even if they may legally do so either before or after school.

Criminal Protection Zones do that job very well, but we need to remember that

Blessings,
Bill

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Goober -

I would agree with you that such things IN AND OF THEMSELVES are not always indicative of trouble. When seen in combination with other things - holy crap, yes they are! It has to be taken as the sum - not just in isolation. I think we would agree on that.

In my situation - I could have put evidence out here that would make every father and mother in this forum CRINGE. And I, sir, had to read it and know where it was pointed. I have deliberately NOT posted the threats and other stuff here. Nor will I. It is not my objective to inflame or create a stir. Rather, I think it's more responsible to remind all concerned of what works in these situations. And I'd rather that people erred on the side of caution and provided help, rather than doing nothing. And the one time we're wrong and it goes ugly, we have a Columbine/Chardon/VA Tech situation. Your point is valid. Any one outburst is not necessarily a cry for help. The danger is when one person only sees one, and another only sees one and another only sees one - and they aren't communicating effectively. School Administrations - like most bureaucracies - are notorious for this. And therein lies the danger.

 

[Goober135]

Goober -

I would agree with you that such things IN AND OF THEMSELVES are not always indicative of trouble. When seen in combination with other things - holy crap, yes they are! It has to be taken as the sum - not just in isolation. I think we would agree on that.

In my situation - I could have put evidence out here that would make every father and mother in this forum CRINGE. And I, sir, had to read it and know where it was pointed. I have deliberately NOT posted the threats and other stuff here. Nor will I. It is not my objective to inflame or create a stir. Rather, I think it's more responsible to remind all concerned of what works in these situations. And I'd rather that people erred on the side of caution and provided help, rather than doing nothing. And the one time we're wrong and it goes ugly, we have a Columbine/Chardon/VA Tech situation. Your point is valid. Any one outburst is not necessarily a cry for help. The danger is when one person only sees one, and another only sees one and another only sees one - and they aren't communicating effectively. School Administrations - like most bureaucracies - are notorious for this. And therein lies the danger.

I think we're on the same page here. As I stated earlier, when I was a kid I went through some pretty dark times, and one of my main ways of venting, was through writing in my LiveJournal (super primitive FaceBook). Never through that entire time did I EVER consider harming myself or anyone else. The reason I brought up what I did about your point, is that in this day and age, where checking out social media is extremely easy, had I made the same posts as I did in the past, I feel as if people would think I was planning on doing something crazy. Which again, never crossed my mind. I'm not saying that what happened to your daughter is anything less than what you said it was, but more the issue that things are not always as they may seem, such as in my case. And I agree that it is better to err on the side of caution rather than ignore warning signs, but I believe we, as a society, need to do a better job of determining who is a real threat, and who, like me, was just blowing off steam.

I've thoroughly enjoyed this talk ArmedProgrammer! I love any kind of talk or debate that is kept civil, even when such an emotional subject as this is brought up.

 

[actaeon277]

We say that children are more important than money.
We guard our money at banks with vaults, cameras, and guns.
We guard the children with a sign on the front door.

 

[JohnP82]

School gun laws are feel-good measures only. They do absolutely nothing to protect anyone, at least any better than a simple school policy. They criminalize otherwise responsible citizens simply because of their possessions when they cross an invisible boundary.

It is already illegal to threaten someone with a weapon.
It is already illegal to shoot someone.
It is already illegal to murder someone.

And yet, it still happens.

Now throw in the fact that every would-be murder knows that schools are easy targets, thanks to all of us "good citizens" obeying the law (and the schools all but ignoring the risks), and it is no surprise that bad things happen.

I find it deeply disturbing that schools don't have a plan for this.

I completely disagree with the schools being gun free zones to legally armed citizens.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Are you saying you don't believe they should be required to go to training?
Seriously?

Seriously.

 

[senork]

Very interesting thread. I can't relate to big school corporation in Indiana, but after spending 39 years in a classroom in a small shool corporation, I believe that Armed Programer's comments pretty-well cover it.

In light of the budget cuts that all public schools in Indiana suffered recently, I doubt that you will find too many school boards and superintendents that would actively seek funding to provide firearms training for faculty and staff. The vast majority of patrons within a school corporation would not go along with this , for many of the reasons some have posted in this thread. In larger corporations, there may be funds to hire police as as school liason officer or by hiring an off duty officer.

Schools have done some things either by mandate or own their own:
The public schools recieved grant money a few years ago to upgrade their facililties... cameras, and door buzzers and automatic locks. The most vunerable time for problems is when the door locks are unlocked at the beginning and end of the day, anyone can enter the building. A I believe that is why most school violence problems happen at the beginning of the day. I think there is a state law which requires a lockdown procedure to be completed 2x a year in all public schools, but I don't know the exact details. And, most schools recieved money for faculty and staff to receive information and/or intervention training subject to "bullying".
Most people think these are satisfactory deterrents.

When I taught, I made it a point to be in the hallway before and after school and between classes, just to be observing. When teaching, I always made sure my classroom door was locked. Little comfort, but what else to do?

There are a lot of factors that comprise this topic, I am now retired and I don't have to relate to this on a daily basis as before. I am not defending nor criticizing anyone, these are just my thoughts after reading the thread

 

[LoneWolf2554]

Hold on. Is that risk different from a mall or a theater or a restaurant or a playground? If so, why? Because the majority of the bystanders/potential victims of the shooter are schoolchildren? Their lives may be the future, but they're of no more or less value than those of the mall patrons, the diners at the restaurant, or the possibly school-age, possibly preschool children on the playground. We need to get away from the idea that a school is any different from anywhere else. It's a different place for the BGs only because they know no one there can fight back. Remove that protection for the BGs and the school is just like anywhere else.

In my opinion the risk of taking someone's life who is not the BG is still a littler higher at a school (the hallways there are tight "kill zones") I would be more comfortable pulling my gun at a mall or restaurant, that's just me at this moment . I am with you that every life is important, doesn't matter if the person is 8 or 80.
Schools are also viewed as these "sacred/safe places" where no harm should ever occur. So if someone walks in and starts shooting at their classmates and a principal comes around the corner and fires at and misses the BG and strikes a couple 7th graders, in the eyes of the public it would be worse than missing the BG at the mall and hitting a 29 year old. But with that being said, I still don't think anyone should act any differently because of public opinion. The BG still needs to be brought down in a controlled manner.

 

[cobber]

If LTCH or less is all that's required for teachers to carry, why would we require more from police and personnel in the armed services (where small arms are concerned)?

Presumably the competent and efficient use of necessary force is desirable for anyone working in a protective function. I'm not sure we're all born with those abilities. Otherwise why so many training courses offered here on INGO, for example?

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

I am also against requiring people to get proper training, because at that point certain questions come up. Who can provide that training? What exactly does the training involve? What is the cost associated with that training?

When I got my LTCH, I was not going to run out and start carrying until I felt comfortable knowing what I was doing... but cost was a concern. I simply did not have too much cash to spend on officially licensed firearms training. Just a reality of my "personal economy" at the time. My Lifetime licence and first handgun is what I spent my first Obama Stimulus on.

But, as I said, I wasn't going to go out until I felt comfortable with a firearm, and felt I knew how to handle one safely. So instead of spending money on a class, I got in touch with some friends. Friends who were in the military whom I trusted to have the knowledge I would need, and whom I knew could be trusted to impart that knowledge to me in a safe and friendly environment.

As to the issue with schools, I always liked the loophole of "persons authorized by the school." I don't have any kids, but I always figured if they needed me on school grounds, I would demand that they either authorize me in writing, or meet me at a "neutral location," such as the pub down the street.

 

[emsdial911]

I agree somewhat with both sides. I do feel that everyone has the right to carry . I also think that people think that they can get a gun and all is well. But without proper training on sight accuracy and identifying your target before pulling the trigger I can see how there would be some serious mistakes. Do you really think that a teacher huddled in their class room during a shooting is not going to react when someone comes into the room? What if its a student seeking refuge or someone letting them know its all clear. I'm all for the right to carry but those of you who are not trained either military or privately or have never been in a hostile environment have no clue how much training comes into play for a good outcome. You have to train to remember your training because when you hear that first shot ring by your head your thought process goes out the window. For those of you who hav had no training Its easy to talk the talk but let us know how unprepared you really were when you get into your first gun battle. Hopefully its not your child when they come sneaking home at 3 in the morning.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Ok, so when we are talking about getting training what exactly does everyone mean? Take a few expensive training classes and all is well? Or should one spend money every year and do like LEO does and have to qualify annually?

How much training is enough?

 

[lovemachine]

Ok, so when we are talking about getting training what exactly does everyone mean? Take a few expensive training classes and all is well? Or should one spend money every year and do like LEO does and have to qualify annually?

How much training is enough?

There are a couple of local churches here that send, and pay, a couple members to take a training class. They send them once a year.

And those couple members are required by the church to be armed while they hold their service.

I think that the schools should do the samething. Send a couple teachers to a local training class, maybe once a year, and have those teachers armed at the school.

 

[Bunnykid68]

There are a couple of local churches here that send, and pay, a couple members to take a training class. They send them once a year.

And those couple members are required by the church to be armed while they hold their service.

I think that the schools should do the samething. Send a couple teachers to a local training class, maybe once a year, and have those teachers armed at the school.

I like that idea.

 

[K_W]

There would be a lot fewer dead school kids if the teachers where allowed to be armed.

That's my thought.

 

[rooster3654]

Training is a great idea and everyone should get training as often as possible. Unfortunately not enough people get frequent training bc of time and money constrants.I don't like mandatory training though bc it would open the door to red tape being wrapped up in a permit. However If the schools were offered the money and the blessing of the public to train teachers that would not create those concerns.