Things picking back up in the Ukraine

[9mmfan]

Just saw this on the evening news. Looks like Kiev police have joined the protesters and the military had refused to get involved. Wonder if that would happen in this country.

 

[mrjarrell]

A good look at the situation, as it stands. I'm surprised it came from the Mail.

'You have the right to rule': Upon release from jail, wheelchair-bound ex-PM Yuila Tymoshenko tells 'hero' protesters they have 'removed cancer from Ukraine' after ousting 'dictator' as civil war threat grows | Mail Online

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Just saw this on the evening news. Looks like Kiev police have joined the protesters and the military had refused to get involved. Wonder if that would happen in this country.

The military will always be on the side of the people in this country. Don't worry.

Obama can remove all the high-ranking generals he wants... I know many people in the military, and they will NOT go for that sort of ****.

He tries to stay one-day past his time, he will be promptly dealt with.

 

[CathyInBlue]

I guess Yanukovych is getting what he wanted, closer ties with Russia, because that's where he'll have to flee to avoid prosecution on corruption charges.

 

[ghostdncr]

I guess Yanukovych is getting what he wanted, closer ties with Russia, because that's where he'll have to flee to avoid prosecution on corruption charges.

It was reported a few hours ago that Ukrainian Border Patrol/Customs prevented his boarding a plane for Russia earlier today: Yanukovych tried to leave: Ukraine Speaker | SBS News

Also, he'll probably be facing murder charges in addition to the corruption charges. Those snipers didn't just decide the protesters "needed killing." Someone cut the orders and I'll wager they came from the top.

 

[BogWalker]

I figured this would got a lot more bloody before it ended.

Who knows, we might get a show yet. Wouldn't surprise me if the new citizens' militias (face it, they really aren't protestors anymore) found other grievances to fight for. Hard to demobilize an irregular force. The pro-Russian Ukrainians may even start trouble of their own.

I don't think we're done in Ukraine.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The military will always be on the side of the people in this country. Don't worry.

Obama can remove all the high-ranking generals he wants... I know many people in the military, and they will NOT go for that sort of ****.

He tries to stay one-day past his time, he will be promptly dealt with.

Always? I not so sure about that, and history has proven that certainly not to be the case.

 

[mrjarrell]

The military will always be on the side of the people in this country. Don't worry.

Obama can remove all the high-ranking generals he wants... I know many people in the military, and they will NOT go for that sort of ****.

He tries to stay one-day past his time, he will be promptly dealt with.

Tell it to the Bonus Marchers and the students at Kent State. You're dreaming if you think they won't just follow orders.

 

[jamil]

The military will always be on the side of the people in this country. Don't worry.

Obama can remove all the high-ranking generals he wants... I know many people in the military, and they will NOT go for that sort of ****.

He tries to stay one-day past his time, he will be promptly dealt with.

Tell it to the Bonus Marchers and the students at Kent State. You're dreaming if you think they won't just follow orders.

As it stands today, we are no where near the kind of political climate necessary for this to even be considered in the US. Obama is too politically weak to attempt such a thing. He's a lamb duck. The few that would follow him are mostly his sycophants, truly fewer and further between than a couple of years ago.

But that's not to say that if political climate were different, and Obama tried to stay in power, that the military would not follow orders. No matter what we might say now, some basic human tendencies are to follow the crowd and obey authority. Not saying all would, but with a bit of social engineering, charismatic leaders can get enough people to justify doing some pretty bad stuff. Get a few to follow and more will join in.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Tell it to the Bonus Marchers and the students at Kent State. You're dreaming if you think they won't just follow orders.

I won't quite go that far, but there will certainly be plenty that will be remain loyal the state, regardless.

 

[ghostdncr]

In following the events in Kiev, I've noticed some things. Namely, how the self-destruction of an oligarch played out before us in real time, courtesy of social media, and how the people worked together to bring about his fall.

Democide killed more people in the 20th century than all the wars combined. In many cases, this state-sponsored mass murder was only realized after the fact. How would the events in Maidan Square have gone in the absence of coverage? Nearly everything that happened there was uploaded to the internet moments afterward. This apparently had the effect of incensing those Ukrainians sitting on the fence; those wishing not to get involved. I've read reports from multiple sources that indicate the protester's ranks began swelling dramatically after the first reports of police using live ammunition against the crowds. In years past, the police would've likely suppressed the rebellion with this tactic but instead, managed only to infuriate the masses and draw in people who would've otherwise avoided the conflict as best they could.

The order, restraint, and organization of this revolution is nothing short of remarkable. Although labeled bandits and pogramists, the protesters seemed to organize into groups to support and bolster the other groups. I feel confident in saying the medical support groups prevented the casualty numbers from being far higher. Food service groups helped keep the square packed with people, which surely had a chilling effect on the regime. I'm still finding limited information on the various security elements and the groups directly attacking the police, but I've read enough to know something of their actions. And there are no reports of looting or vandalism? It seemed as if there was an almost instantaneous return to civility upon capitulation of the government. When has that ever happened?!?!

 

[gvbcraig]

And there are no reports of looting or vandalism? It seemed as if there was an almost instantaneous return to civility upon capitulation of the government. When has that ever happened?!?!

We noticed that also, especially when they overran the president's palace, they were civil. Respect for property on other people.

 

[ghostdncr]

We noticed that also, especially when they overran the president's palace, they were civil. Respect for property on other people.

EXACTLY! Those who overran the presidential palace immediately posted guards and organized tours. That's such contradictory behavior considering the context of the past week's events! How can one not feel reverence for the Ukrainian people in light of how they've conducted themselves throughout this episode?

 

[gvbcraig]

What I find interesting are words to the Ukrainian National Anthem. It was written in 1863, similar to our own Battle Hymn of the Republic.
This not the whole thing, just the first verse and chorus, but what is says could have been written last week in the Maidan.

Ukraine's Glory Has Not Perished

Ukraine's freedom has not yet perished, nor has her glory,
Upon us, fellow Ukrainians, fate shall smile once more.
Our enemies will vanish like dew in the sun,
And we too shall rule, brothers, in a free land of our own.

We'll lay down our souls and bodies to attain our freedom,
And we'll show that we, brothers, are of the Cossack nation.
We'll stand together for freedom, from the Syan to the Don,
We will not allow others to rule in our motherland.
The Black Sea will smile and grandfather Dnipro will rejoice,
For in our own Ukraine fortune shall flourish again.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Before we get caught up comparing Ukrainians to Americans, they still got a long road to travel. 17% of the Ukraine is Russian, and the eastern part of the nation is VERY pro-Putin. Given how broke the nation is, Putin could literally put the stranglehold on them. Dmitri Medvedev has already started talking about the legitimacy of the new govt. Get your popcorn, as long as American troops or money don't start flowing that way, this should be quite a show.

 

[cobber]

Before we get caught up comparing Ukrainians to Americans, they still got a long road to travel. 17% of the Ukraine is Russian, and the eastern part of the nation is VERY pro-Putin. Given how broke the nation is, Putin could literally put the stranglehold on them. Dmitri Medvedev has already started talking about the legitimacy of the new govt. Get your popcorn, as long as American troops or money don't start flowing that way, this should be quite a show.

They're no less legitimate than the kleptocracy that took over when the CPSU decamped from Moscow.

Look for China to make overtures to Kiev?

 

[Kutnupe14]

They're no less legitimate than the kleptocracy that took over when the CPSU decamped from Moscow.

Look for China to make overtures to Kiev?

China's not that stupid. Chinese and Russian relations went cold decades ago, over which type of communism they'd each practice. It hasn't warmed up, and obviously they share a border. China wants no part of that cluster unless they intentionally want to PO Russia.