The President Trump Immigration Thread

[Kutnupe14]

Kinda makes you wonder if the attorneys are that bad or if they're arguing what they've been told to argue.

I would bet it's the latter. It's better to go the "Gump" route, do what you're told to the letter, and lose; than it is to present a better (yet unsanctioned) argument, risk losing, and incur the wrath of your boss for not bringing up his points often enough.

 

[jamil]

Perhaps "unlimited" holds a different meaning to me. Can you point me to the direction of the Democrat that has called for this type of immigration? Oh, and also how Trump turned the lightbulb on in people's heads, who hadn't noticed that sanctuary cities existed prior to his election?

Kut (thinks we're dealing with a creative chronology)

What? You never watch CNN?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

So we are ok with citizens being randomly detained for an up to an hour by unnamed government sources?

I've been pulled aside for the special search, which was about 5 minutes at the max. Coming back from the Bahamas in about 2003, I was pulled aside for special treatment on 2 consecutive connecting flights.

And, in fairness to TSA, I'm a bit swarthy. Especially when I'm tan.

I was detained for 15 minutes and my baggage searched by no fewer than THREE TSA agents who were convinced that the x-ray showed a BAGUETTE (french bread loaf) in my luggage. It would have been longer, but I asked what they were looking for, and little embarassed they were honest, and I pointed out a pair of shoes that were heal-to-heal. A few laughs and I was on my way... had I not asked, or had they not been honest, it would have been longer, IMO, because the second searcher was on the phone for additional help.

It didn't dawn on me, but now it's apparent they were Franco-phobes! Lol!

FIFY....and She's still an American citizen. If her documents don't check out, sure detain her. If you have RS she is up to something, detain her. Random compliance check, nope.... you know that this stuff technically violates the 4th Amendment, as originally intended right?

No, you didn't fix it for me... you want to use your words, you use them... don't put your aspersions into my mouth.

And, RANDOM doesn't mean that only old ladies and 6 year olds get the luck of the draw for the additional attention. If you have evidence that the TSA is profiling, then point it out. If not, state YOUR opinion and leave my words the hell alone.

You do remember the TSA dropping profiling and searching old ladies, right?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

If you have evidence that the TSA is profiling, then point it out. If not, state YOUR opinion and leave my words the hell alone.

Wait are we for or against profiling now? I can't keep up with INGO sometimes.

 

[T.Lex]

I was detained for 15 minutes and my baggage searched by no fewer than THREE TSA agents who were convinced that the x-ray showed a BAGUETTE (french bread loaf) in my luggage.

LOL

My wife's family is French. I know very well baguettes. The riskier item would've been the cheese you were going to have with it. Some of that is VERY strong.

The point, though, is they had a reason to detain you. Something on the x-ray didn't look right. That's reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS).

Now, coming into the country, they can administratively search you for no reason. But really, how long would that take? Max 15 mins? Your identity should not be an issue, since you (probably) have a passport and drivers license/other proof of residency.

What possible justification, without RAS, is there for holding a US citizen for an hour?

 

[Kutnupe14]

No, you didn't fix it for me... you want to use your words, you use them... don't put your aspersions into my mouth.

And, RANDOM doesn't mean that only old ladies and 6 year olds get the luck of the draw for the additional attention. If you have evidence that the TSA is profiling, then point it out. If not, state YOUR opinion and leave my words the hell alone.

Neverminding the fact that just might be the only person in the United States that has confidence in the TSA (which is laughable), perhaps you should learn more about your country, Mr. Sheepdog... because it appears that you actually think that people stopped in airports are only done so randomly. I "FIFY," because it needed to be fixed. The TSA has a profiling system, enacted right after the Sept 11th attacks. I assume you can imagine which groups of people tend to be "randomly" (notice the quotes) stopped under this program. But don't take my word on it, look it up, if you thirst for knowledge.

"IF"

Kut (knows not many want their world view changed)

 

[SheepDog4Life]

To sidetrack for a minute, there's a conservativism issue: what makes someone's immigration status your concern? (Not directly at you, specifically, Twangbanger, but the generic INGO-you.) Are they taking "your" job that you're not entitled to anyway? Are they keeping the labor rate low so you don't make "what you deserve"? Aren't you a special snowflake. None of those things are promised (other than minimum wage).

Exploitation of migrant labor is a historical fact and it continues today... in my neck of the woods, when it's watermelon/cantelope season, human beings are packed into horse trailers and carted in from around the country. About 30 minutes after dark, they are hauled into the nearest Walmart in the same top-chopped school bus used to haul watermelons out of the field, doubtless having worked from first light to last. And, if you think they are actually being paid a minimum wage (after being charged for haulage, etc) then I've swamp land for sale.

These inhumane conditions are what they face after paying cartel "coyotes" $3-5,000 to be lead across the desert, and being held hostage on this side for additional money. IF they try it on their own, the cartel murders them in the desert as an example... 425,000 detained at the border, plus more that make it through, times $3-5k per head is $1-2 BILLION. The cartel isn't going to let people go on their own.

Allow work permits issued from embassies and consuls in the originating countries and all of that disappears... the workers can take a $500 flight here, work for at least minimum wage and humane working conditions. It's not just the work "magnet", wage depression and inhuman conditions that is a problem, it's that they have no choice but to fund the drug cartels who "own" border crossings.

 

[T.Lex]

Exploitation of migrant labor is a historical fact and it continues today... in my neck of the woods, when it's watermelon/cantelope season, human beings are packed into horse trailers and carted in from around the country. About 30 minutes after dark, they are hauled into the nearest Walmart in the same top-chopped school bus used to haul watermelons out of the field, doubtless having worked from first light to last. And, if you think they are actually being paid a minimum wage (after being charged for haulage, etc) then I've swamp land for sale.

These inhumane conditions are what they face after paying cartel "coyotes" $3-5,000 to be lead across the desert, and being held hostage on this side for additional money. IF they try it on their own, the cartel murders them in the desert as an example... 425,000 detained at the border, plus more that make it through, times $3-5k per head is $1-2 BILLION. The cartel isn't going to let people go on their own.

Allow work permits issued from embassies and consuls in the originating countries and all of that disappears... the workers can take a $500 flight here, work for at least minimum wage and humane working conditions. It's not just the work "magnet", wage depression and inhuman conditions that is a problem, it's that they have no choice but to fund the drug cartels who "own" border crossings.

The more we argue the more we start sounding the same.

The only leverage the "employers" (feel like calling them "owners") have is that the people are illegal. Take that leverage away, and things start clicking. No cap on work visas, amnesty for those here (who would probably be incentivized to start businesses to compete with the employer/owner types) and things start to break loose. Mostly in a good way, IMHO.

Well, depending on how cheap you like your watermelons.

Regardless, it'll take dramatic steps to move the needle at all. More inaction is probably not a good longterm solution.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Neverminding the fact that just might be the only person in the United States that has confidence in the TSA (which is laughable), perhaps you should learn more about your country, Mr. Sheepdog... because it appears that you actually think that people stopped in airports are only done so randomly. I "FIFY," because it needed to be fixed. The TSA has a profiling system, enacted right after the Sept 11th attacks. I assume you can imagine which groups of people tend to be "randomly" (notice the quotes) stopped under this program. But don't take my word on it, look it up, if you thirst for knowledge.

"IF"

Nope, I don't say the the TSA is perfect, far from it... devised as a union employment program, it was flawed from the start. But, neither do I accept that they are ALWAYS wrong.

From the TSA website:

TSA may use a variety of screening processes, including random screening, regardless of whether an alarm is triggered.

TSA has responded that IN THIS CASE, she was screened because she was flagged for a random additional screening.

Kut (knows not many want their world view changed)

This woman has been shown to be a LIAR, both about the date the event occurred (Obama still in office) and the duration of the screening. Since you place your ABSOLUTE FAITH in LIAR, then I suggest you look in the mirror to determine who's world view is affecting their judgement.

And use your own words... putting your words into my mouth is a shot across the bow and expect a full broadside every time.

Respect is a two-way street, Mr Kutnupe.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

The more we argue the more we start sounding the same.

The only leverage the "employers" (feel like calling them "owners") have is that the people are illegal. Take that leverage away, and things start clicking. No cap on work visas, amnesty for those here (who would probably be incentivized to start businesses to compete with the employer/owner types) and things start to break loose. Mostly in a good way, IMHO.

Well, depending on how cheap you like your watermelons.

Regardless, it'll take dramatic steps to move the needle at all. More inaction is probably not a good longterm solution.

I think we can agree, minus the amnesty for me... but, the work Visa program issued from the home country has been offered many times before and shot down by, mostly, Democrats. While a non-amnesty would end the inhumanity, both at the border and the workplace, they still prefer the status quo over that solution. Why? IMO, it's because they want people here to vote. And, most of the farmers I know of who use these workers have Democrat signs up come November, but that's just my neck of the woods. I'm sure there are plenty of Repubs who see $$$ over morality as well.

I get my watermelons and canelopes from a local family-run co-op that doesn't use migrant labor, but pays locals, mostly high school/college kids, to pick the produce and attracts them to the hard work by offering in excess of minimum wage... I'm willing to pay an extra buck or two in order to sleep at night without nightmares of humans shipped around in horse trailers.

 

[T.Lex]

I think we can agree, minus the amnesty for me... but, the work Visa program issued from the home country has been offered many times before and shot down by, mostly, Democrats. While a non-amnesty would end the inhumanity, both at the border and the workplace, they still prefer the status quo over that solution. Why? IMO, it's because they want people here to vote. And, most of the farmers I know of who use these workers have Democrat signs up come November, but that's just my neck of the woods. I'm sure there are plenty of Repubs who see $$$ over morality as well.

Why the angst about amnesty? I mean, in conservative terms, what business is it of yours what someone's immigration status is?

Amnesty, or a path to it, would further diminish the influence of the worker-traffickers. Without it, there will still be a large well of leveragable labor for them.

 

[printcraft]

Neverminding the fact that just might be the only person in the United States that has confidence in the TSA (which is laughable), perhaps you should learn more about your country, Mr. Sheepdog... because it appears that you actually think that people stopped in airports are only done so randomly. I "FIFY," because it needed to be fixed. The TSA has a profiling system, enacted right after the Sept 11th attacks. I assume you can imagine which groups of people tend to be "randomly" (notice the quotes) stopped under this program. But don't take my word on it, look it up, if you thirst for knowledge.

"IF"

Kut (knows not many want their world view changed)

FREAKING JIHADISTS!!!!!!!!

To be fair, the last one use to work for Dr. Evil. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[jamil]

Neverminding the fact that just might be the only person in the United States that has confidence in the TSA (which is laughable), perhaps you should learn more about your country, Mr. Sheepdog... because it appears that you actually think that people stopped in airports are only done so randomly. I "FIFY," because it needed to be fixed. The TSA has a profiling system, enacted right after the Sept 11th attacks. I assume you can imagine which groups of people tend to be "randomly" (notice the quotes) stopped under this program. But don't take my word on it, look it up, if you thirst for knowledge.

"IF"

Kut (knows not many want their world view changed)

I'll admit I don't know a lot about TSA, except the frequent examples on social media where they detain and body-cavity search old ladies, or flunk security tests. Frankly, as far as profiling, I don't want them profiling races specifically. I am okay with establishing likely visual and behavioral identifiers to use to determine who should be scrutinized more. Surely some behaviors make some people more scrutiny-worthy than the 90 year old woman dressed like and acting like grandma.

Jamil (wonders how fond kut is of his worldview)

 

[jamil]

FREAKING JIHADISTS!!!!!!!!




To be fair, the last one use to work for Dr. Evil. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Should have known you'd say the same thing I did but with pictures.

 

[Route 45]

Jamil (wonders how fond kut is of his worldview)

I would imagine it is similar to the relationship between Cookie Monster and chocolate chips.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Nope, I don't say the the TSA is perfect, far from it... devised as a union employment program, it was flawed from the start. But, neither do I accept that they are ALWAYS wrong.

From the TSA website:



TSA has responded that IN THIS CASE, she was screened because she was flagged for a random additional screening.



This woman has been shown to be a LIAR, both about the date the event occurred (Obama still in office) and the duration of the screening. Since you place your ABSOLUTE FAITH in LIAR, then I suggest you look in the mirror to determine who's world view is affecting their judgement.

And use your own words... putting your words into my mouth is a shot across the bow and expect a full broadside every time.

Respect is a two-way street, Mr Kutnupe.

First question: What word exactly, did I put in your mouth?
Second question: Which liar did I place ABSOLUTE FAITH in?
Bonus Question (for anyone to answer): How were you disrespected, from the pointing out of an error you were unaware of?

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'll admit I don't know a lot about TSA, except the frequent examples on social media where they detain and body-cavity search old ladies, or flunk security tests. Frankly, as far as profiling, I don't want them profiling races specifically. I am okay with establishing likely visual and behavioral identifiers to use to determine who should be scrutinized more. Surely some behaviors make some people more scrutiny-worthy than the 90 year old woman dressed like and acting like grandma.

Jamil (wonders how fond kut is of his worldview)

Depends, how many rights should Americans give up without RAS? I know what I think, but apparently some, prefer rights on a case by case basis.

 

[jamil]

Depends, how many rights should Americans give up without RAS? I know what I think, but apparently some, prefer rights on a case by case basis.

I don't have a problem with screening. I do have a problem with scrutinizing people because of some races more than others. It's why I don't care for how they implement stop-n-frisk. If the RAS is because the person happens to be black, well, just no. But if the RAS is because the person is actually behaving suspiciously, regardless of race, then fine.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I don't have a problem with screening. I do have a problem with scrutinizing people because of some races more than others. It's why I don't care for how they implement stop-n-frisk. If the RAS is because the person happens to be black, well, just no. But if the RAS is because the person is actually behaving suspiciously, regardless of race, then fine.

It depends on how much faith you place in the implementation of govt power. "Behaving suspiciously," has quite a wide latitude for potential abuse, and a very small sliver of legal satisfaction if abused... as with any type of profiling. And this doesn't even mean the persons enforcing this stuff are bad, bigoted, or racist. They simply have certain biases that steers them in certain directions. Some, not all.

 

[jamil]

It depends on how much faith you place in the implementation of govt power. "Behaving suspiciously," has quite a wide latitude for potential abuse, and a very small sliver of legal satisfaction if abused... as with any type of profiling. And this doesn't even mean the persons enforcing this stuff are bad, bigoted, or racist. They simply have certain biases that steers them in certain directions. Some, not all.

I'm not setting a legal standard here. You probably know what behaving suspiciously means when you see it. I think boundaries can be placed around "reasonable".