"The Pitchforks Are Coming… For Us Plutocrats"

[88E30M50]

It's a very interesting article. In some ways, it's similar to the pro-gun argument that more guns = less crime. In this case, more money in the right hands = more spending at that same level. I've never been a fan of the idea of a minimum wage but will admit that this article does present a different perspective from what I've held before. The idea that if you give your lowest level of employees a decent wage, you reduce the dependency on government subsidy is interesting. Supporting the bottom level of our society through higher taxes and government programs is woefully inefficient. Maybe skipping the government route and putting the money directly into those folks that have jobs is the better choice.

Then again, I also think that one of the biggest issues we face is with our countries mindset. It used to be that to employ a person was a worthy goal. What you did for a living helped to determine how you were seen by others. If you ran a factory that employed 100 people, you were admired as an employer. Today, people are not valued or judged by what they do or how well they do it, but more by what they have or how they look. A company is not valued by how many it employs, but more over by how much it makes. If that factory owner can improve his profit margin by automating the production line and laying off 25 workers, he's considered a success today. If he can lay 60 of the remaining 75 off and offshore the work, he's thought to be brilliant. People see him in his Mercedes or playing golf in the middle of the day and want to be him.

Until work is valued again, both from the folks doing it as well as those employing them to do it, nothing will change.

 

[Indy317]

Has it occurred to you that perhaps welfare is the biggest contributor to the welfare class? Has it also occurred to you that it's already pretty damned expensive to do business in the US? Why do you think all our **** is made in china?

Do you support China labor laws, wages, rules, etc.? One can't have it both ways. If it is true that people in China are making extreme poverty wages, living like sardines in dorm type settings, no over-time pay, forced over-time, etc., then you have to support that kind of business being done here in the US. There is a reason things are cheaper in China. If this is the lifestyle we want for the middle class, then just argue for that kind of work environment, government laws, etc. and the jobs will come back.

The article itself is laughable. The guy has a point, but he fails to take into account various factors. The bulk of adult fast food/retail workers I see, usually in larger metro areas, likely aren't married and usually have a kid or two. The author liked to point out things in the past that were changed but didn't cause a disaster, like child labor laws, hikes in the minimum wage, etc.. Well how many unmarried single parent households were there back then? Was the government subsidizing food, housing, healthcare, etc. like they do now? Was there technology back during the passage of major laws that could easily slash the need for basic minimally skilled workers? Another thing that isn't mentioned is what happens when a large % of those current low wage workers are replaced by people who want an easier job and now that the job pays $15/hr instead of $9/hr., they will take the job? An example would be an OK paid computer tech guy, public safety worker, etc. who makes around $20/hr. now. They have saved, have savings, but hate their job. They would rather have something easy, maybe something more enjoyable like working at a home improvement store, working at a gun store, maybe a company that does travel stuff, but right now the money isn't there. At $15/hr though, it becomes worth it to them to take the financial hit to do something they love. The flip side to this is that people will see this and while they might be OK with their $20+/hr. gig, if they don't get more they will walk into one of these easier jobs and take the financial hit. This will be especially true if some businesses raise their prices knowing how much more money a lot of people have. Not every company is a national billion dollar corporation who can take the financial hit of paying increased wages. Plus you will still have the greed factor when mom and pop know people are making a lot more money so they jack prices. Of course if prices rise too high, then those at the $15/hr range go right back to the same position they were in with being able to afford certain luxury and extras in life. If that class of wage earners now can no longer afford a decent vacation, then those making $20/hr went from easily being able to afford the same vacation, but now it might be a huge hit in the pocketbook for them, hence they start asking for increased wages.

 

[jamil]

Do you support China labor laws, wages, rules, etc.? One can't have it both ways. If it is true that people in China are making extreme poverty wages, living like sardines in dorm type settings, no over-time pay, forced over-time, etc., then you have to support that kind of business being done here in the US. There is a reason things are cheaper in China. If this is the lifestyle we want for the middle class, then just argue for that kind of work environment, government laws, etc. and the jobs will come back.

The article itself is laughable. The guy has a point, but he fails to take into account various factors. The bulk of adult fast food/retail workers I see, usually in larger metro areas, likely aren't married and usually have a kid or two. The author liked to point out things in the past that were changed but didn't cause a disaster, like child labor laws, hikes in the minimum wage, etc.. Well how many unmarried single parent households were there back then? Was the government subsidizing food, housing, healthcare, etc. like they do now? Was there technology back during the passage of major laws that could easily slash the need for basic minimally skilled workers? Another thing that isn't mentioned is what happens when a large % of those current low wage workers are replaced by people who want an easier job and now that the job pays $15/hr instead of $9/hr., they will take the job? An example would be an OK paid computer tech guy, public safety worker, etc. who makes around $20/hr. now. They have saved, have savings, but hate their job. They would rather have something easy, maybe something more enjoyable like working at a home improvement store, working at a gun store, maybe a company that does travel stuff, but right now the money isn't there. At $15/hr though, it becomes worth it to them to take the financial hit to do something they love. The flip side to this is that people will see this and while they might be OK with their $20+/hr. gig, if they don't get more they will walk into one of these easier jobs and take the financial hit. This will be especially true if some businesses raise their prices knowing how much more money a lot of people have. Not every company is a national billion dollar corporation who can take the financial hit of paying increased wages. Plus you will still have the greed factor when mom and pop know people are making a lot more money so they jack prices. Of course if prices rise too high, then those at the $15/hr range go right back to the same position they were in with being able to afford certain luxury and extras in life. If that class of wage earners now can no longer afford a decent vacation, then those making $20/hr went from easily being able to afford the same vacation, but now it might be a huge hit in the pocketbook for them, hence they start asking for increased wages.

As long as people are unwilling to accept some unsavory practices in their own back yards, there will always be a china that will. And that's where that kind of labor will be in demand.

 

[tetsujin79]

Here's a seriously wealthy guy calling for an increase in the minimum wage, citing the failed policy of "trickle down". I must say, he does lay out his case in a rather rational fashion. His self interest, (in not wanting to die in a possible revolution due to income inequality), shows through, but he does make a compelling case. Not sure I agree with him, but at least he doesn't insult your intelligence.

The Pitchforks Are Coming? For Us Plutocrats - Nick Hanauer - POLITICO Magazine

Great post & article.


"They got chased out of Germany by Hitler and ended up in Seattle owning another pillow company. Three generations later, I benefited from that. Then I got as lucky as a person could possibly get in the Internet age by having a buddy in Seattle named Bezos."

Doesn't sound like luck, it sounds like family money.

"I was so excited by the potential of the web that I told both Jeffs that I wanted to invest in whatever they launched, big time. It just happened that the second Jeff—Bezos—called me back first to take up my investment offer."

He may not be smart, but he's a hell of a businessman.

 

[Arthur Dent]

What fantasy? I responded to your statements in post #59.

If you have some new facts or historical data you'd like to discuss, that's great, but the fact that you favor government meddling to impose artificial wage controls is not in question here.

Here's your fantasy:

With government out of the equation, there wouldn't be much need for initiatives such as this. The whole system would be allowed to adjust freely and naturally.

 

[Arthur Dent]

Wait so you are or aren't in favor of more government force?

I'm in favor of less.

 

[Arthur Dent]

When you subsidize the unskilled and unproductive, you create a larger pool of unskilled and unproductive.

Is that what America needs?

Remaining unskilled and unproductive shouldn't be a comfortable career path option.

Paying people so little that they remain unskilled and unproductive is the solution?

 

[jamil]

Here's your fantasy:

I'm in favor of less.

Paying people so little that they remain unskilled and unproductive is the solution?

Dude, c'mon. I'd like you to say in no uncertain terms, do you want the government to impose a "living wage" or not? If so, please explain how that's the "less" government you favor. Oh, and re-invoking the article isn't an explanation.

 

[AtTheMurph]

You presume that these people have no choices in life?

If you don't like your wage find a new job or better yet start your own business and pay yourself whatever wage you think you deserve. I think every person should be at least an independent contractor and no one should be an "employee". That means we all negotiate our own pay structure or contract with whomever we are dealing with. Don't like the pay? find a new customer for your services.

The real problem Hanauer is talking about though has nothing to do with a minimum wage. The reason the Middle class is dying is as a direct result of money printing and government actions.

Money printing has always enriched those closet to the printing press. Hanauer is one of those. Money printing creates assets bubbles (such as in Amazon stock) that enrich the few while simultaneously destroying the purchasing power of the dollar. That purchasing power destruction effects those with the least disposable income first and those not on inflation adjusted government benefits.

The poor will always be poor. The middle class gets destroyed and the rich will be slightly less rich when the dollar is printed to oblivion, which it will have to be eventually. But we are seeing the telltale signs of a currency crisis in the very BS Hanauer writes about.

There are going to be pitchforks and the wealthy and the bureaucrats will try to deflect blame as they always do. They will try to appease the masses and buy time to continue their thievery but that which is not sustainable will not be sustained. Our federal Reserve will print more and more money because they have to. Our government will borrow more and more money because they have to. Those two things alone mean the pitchforks will be coming because they mean our currency will be destroyed and that means chaos, a breakdown of civility (think pitchforks) and a collapse of society.

It's coming and it is already too late. I use an analogy regarding the Fed. They are filling our basement with gasoline (QE/printed money). With each new turn of the printing press the basement fills higher with more gasoline. It can fill for a long time but eventually we will get a spark which ignites and the whole house blows to pieces.

 

[jamil]

You presume that these people have no choices in life?

If you don't like your wage find a new job or better yet start your own business and pay yourself whatever wage you think you deserve. I think every person should be at least an independent contractor and no one should be an "employee". That means we all negotiate our own pay structure or contract with whomever we are dealing with. Don't like the pay? find a new customer for your services.

The real problem Hanauer is talking about though has nothing to do with a minimum wage. The reason the Middle class is dying is as a direct result of money printing and government actions.

Money printing has always enriched those closet to the printing press. Hanauer is one of those. Money printing creates assets bubbles (such as in Amazon stock) that enrich the few while simultaneously destroying the purchasing power of the dollar. That purchasing power destruction effects those with the least disposable income first and those not on inflation adjusted government benefits.

The poor will always be poor. The middle class gets destroyed and the rich will be slightly less rich when the dollar is printed to oblivion, which it will have to be eventually. But we are seeing the telltale signs of a currency crisis in the very BS Hanauer writes about.

There are going to be pitchforks and the wealthy and the bureaucrats will try to deflect blame as they always do. They will try to appease the masses and buy time to continue their thievery but that which is not sustainable will not be sustained. Our federal Reserve will print more and more money because they have to. Our government will borrow more and more money because they have to. Those two things alone mean the pitchforks will be coming because they mean our currency will be destroyed and that means chaos, a breakdown of civility (think pitchforks) and a collapse of society.

It's coming and it is already too late. I use an analogy regarding the Fed. They are filling our basement with gasoline (QE/printed money). With each new turn of the printing press the basement fills higher with more gasoline. It can fill for a long time but eventually we will get a spark which ignites and the whole house blows to pieces.

That's about right.

 

[Arthur Dent]

Dude, c'mon. I'd like you to say in no uncertain terms, do you want the government to impose a "living wage" or not? If so, please explain how that's the "less" government you favor. Oh, and re-invoking the article isn't an explanation.

There should be an imposed minimum wage which, adjusted for inflation, should be around $15/hour. "Less" government in other areas, such as violating our rights.

 

[Arthur Dent]

You presume that these people have no choices in life?

If you don't like your wage find a new job or better yet start your own business and pay yourself whatever wage you think you deserve. I think every person should be at least an independent contractor and no one should be an "employee". That means we all negotiate our own pay structure or contract with whomever we are dealing with. Don't like the pay? find a new customer for your services.

The real problem Hanauer is talking about though has nothing to do with a minimum wage. The reason the Middle class is dying is as a direct result of money printing and government actions.

Money printing has always enriched those closet to the printing press. Hanauer is one of those. Money printing creates assets bubbles (such as in Amazon stock) that enrich the few while simultaneously destroying the purchasing power of the dollar. That purchasing power destruction effects those with the least disposable income first and those not on inflation adjusted government benefits.

The poor will always be poor. The middle class gets destroyed and the rich will be slightly less rich when the dollar is printed to oblivion, which it will have to be eventually. But we are seeing the telltale signs of a currency crisis in the very BS Hanauer writes about.

There are going to be pitchforks and the wealthy and the bureaucrats will try to deflect blame as they always do. They will try to appease the masses and buy time to continue their thievery but that which is not sustainable will not be sustained. Our federal Reserve will print more and more money because they have to. Our government will borrow more and more money because they have to. Those two things alone mean the pitchforks will be coming because they mean our currency will be destroyed and that means chaos, a breakdown of civility (think pitchforks) and a collapse of society.

It's coming and it is already too late. I use an analogy regarding the Fed. They are filling our basement with gasoline (QE/printed money). With each new turn of the printing press the basement fills higher with more gasoline. It can fill for a long time but eventually we will get a spark which ignites and the whole house blows to pieces.

The middle class is dying as a result of governmental policies set in place at the behest of businesses and the wealthy.

 

[mrjarrell]

Wages are going to have to be addressed at some point. They've been stagnant for over 10 years (longer even for the lowest paid people). They're not doing the economy any favours. Companies are stockpiling their money and paying out executive bonuses in the millions while the workers are getting ****. Eventually, things are going to boil over.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/sunday-review/americas-productivity-climbs-but-wages-stagnate.html

 

[jamil]

There should be an imposed minimum wage which, adjusted for inflation, should be around $15/hour. "Less" government in other areas, such as violating our rights.

A government big enough to force companies to pay a minimum wage is a government big enough to continue violating your rights. What about the right of a business owner, who has taken all the risk, to pay what the job is worth? A business is not in business to employ people.

The middle class is dying as a result of governmental policies set in place at the behest of businesses and the wealthy.

So stop printing money!

Wages are going to have to be addressed at some point. They've been stagnant for over 10 years (longer even for the lowest paid people). They're not doing the economy any favours. Companies are stockpiling their money and paying out executive bonuses in the millions while the workers are getting ****. Eventually, things are going to boil over.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/sunday-review/americas-productivity-climbs-but-wages-stagnate.html

I think we need to get the government to stop with the Keynesian anal sex, and stop the corporate welfare.

 

[mrjarrell]

I think we need to get the government to stop with the Keynesian anal sex, and stop the corporate welfare.

I don't disagree with that, but the business community needs to get its collective **** together and start paying people a decent wage. Eventually the authors dire predictions will come true and it could get damned ugly when it does. I see big companies all the time giving out millions in exec bonuses and the workers get stiffed, year after year. Stagnant salaries are a drag on the economy, (no matter what the talking heads at Fox say). Eventually the man on the street is going to convince .gov to do something and when they do, we'll be screwed.

 

[level.eleven]

I don't disagree with that, but the business community needs to get its collective **** together and start paying people a decent wage. Eventually the authors dire predictions will come true and it could get damned ugly when it does. I see big companies all the time giving out millions in exec bonuses and the workers get stiffed, year after year. Stagnant salaries are a drag on the economy, (no matter what the talking heads at Fox say). Eventually the man on the street is going to convince .gov to do something and when they do, we'll be screwed.

You've simply rehashed the history of Laissez-faire economics. You are asking an industry that operates on the short term to consider the long term. How are you going to do that while money is being made hand over fist?

 

[actaeon277]

You've simply rehashed the history of Laissez-faire economics. You are asking an industry that operates on the short term to consider the long term. How are you going to do that while money is being made hand over fist?

Stop buying their crap,

 

[deal me in]

There should be an imposed minimum wage which, adjusted for inflation, should be around $15/hour. "Less" government in other areas, such as violating our rights.

Why $15? Why not $13? Why not $25? How did you arrive at 15? This is the problem with central planning. No individual or small group can calculate price discovery as efficiently as markets. When they try, they just create distortions that have unintended consequences.

 

[ATM]

I'm in favor of less.

There should be an imposed minimum wage which, adjusted for inflation, should be around $15/hour. "Less" government in other areas, such as violating our rights.

I will leave you to reconcile your own conflicts.

 

[poptab]

Blame the free market for government caused problems and then call for more government as a solution. Brilliant! Let's sink this ship faster.

Just for my own personal kicks ...
Who here is in favor of a weak dollar?