The Math Doesn't Add Up?

[Cameramonkey]

Altogether different timeline, video:
http://videos.usatoday.net/Brightco...6/29906170001_4940851040001_4939764967001.mp4

USAToday, so... consider the source.

But, near-immediate reaction by off-duty officer, and backup arrives within minutes. I'm leaning towards Hough's idea that a significant percentage of dead/injured may not have been gunfire.

Also calls to question the idea of shelter in place. If people hid in the wrong bathroom... well...

Not the bathroom thing again!?!? (too soon?) But seriously...

And remember the golden hour. Many gunshot victims that would have otherwise not so life threatening injuries could have bled out due to the fact that they couldnt get to them soon enough. Pure speculation, but what started as walking wounded with relatively minor GSWs could escalate to critical after several hours of laying there or after being trampled. Im sure the death toll would have been less had they been able to get out quicker.

 

[Tombs]

We'll need ballistician reports to confirm it but I have a suspicion that in the cross fire with police, innocents were hit.

Along with that, medical teams likely were not allowed in until long after the scene was declared safe, so of course many people would have bled out and died as a result of that rule. Hints why it's a good idea to carry first aid items on you. (There really needs to be an exception to that rule if the medical teams are willing to take the risk.)

 

[Kutnupe14]

We'll need ballistician reports to confirm it but I have a suspicion that in the cross fire with police, innocents were hit.

Along with that, medical teams likely were not allowed in until long after the scene was declared safe, so of course many people would have bled out and died as a result of that rule. Hints why it's a good idea to carry first aid items on you. (There really needs to be an exception to that rule if the medical teams are willing to take the risk.)

From my understanding the gun battle with police was outside of the club.

 

[Tombs]

From my understanding the gun battle with police was outside of the club.

Bullets don't magically stop because of some stucco and drywall.

 

[Cameramonkey]

We'll need ballistician reports to confirm it but I have a suspicion that in the cross fire with police, innocents were hit.

Along with that, medical teams likely were not allowed in until long after the scene was declared safe, so of course many people would have bled out and died as a result of that rule. Hints why it's a good idea to carry first aid items on you. (There really needs to be an exception to that rule if the medical teams are willing to take the risk.)

I dont like that risk, personally. It really sucks, but do you have an expendable die, or a highly trained professional die? While it sucks for Joe or Jody Clubgoer to die, how many more die later or even in the near future because Patty Paramedic got wasted trying to save them? victim dies, more people can be saved after the scene is cleared as well as many more throughout the next several months as that medic goes about his business. If the medic is killed, he aint helping anyone else that night, or ever. And it will take months if not years to replace him.

It sucks, but I'm glad they dont go rushing in.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Bullets don't magically stop because of some stucco and drywall.

No, and people don't often stand upright after seeing their friends murdered and in the area of continuous gunfire.

 

[Tombs]

No, and people don't often stand upright after seeing their friends murdered and in the area of continuous gunfire.

You're saying he left the building. So if they knew the coast was clear, they likely would have been trying to get out of there in any direction except for the gun fire. Who wants to wait around for that person to come back in and kill you?

 

[Kutnupe14]

You're saying he left the building. So if they knew the coast was clear, they likely would have been trying to get out of there in any direction except for the gun fire. Who wants to wait around for that person to come back in and kill you?

Well apparently the coast wasn't clear, if you think that many of them were killed by friendly fire. Which goes back to the typical reaction of cowering in a corner, hoping for the great pumpkin to save your ***, and not going anywhere.

 

[Zero_ek]

Someone over on akfiles posted up a video of an interview with a guy on a news channel saying someone was trying to hold the doors shut so no one could leave. And then someone else that was at the club said there were 2 gunman but if drugs were involved who knows.

 

[T.Lex]

From my understanding the gun battle with police was outside of the club.

According to the video thingy, there were shots fired outside as he entered, then outside again toward arriving backup, then the final confrontation was inside some 3 hours later.

The truth may be somewhere in the middle of those described events.

 

[Woobie]

Soft tissue strikes over penetrations and multiple hits.

Maybe a wound on a pass through, but 5.56 just isn't worth much after exiting a person.

 

[femurphy77]

Whew!!! Man I just read this thread top to bottom, I need a breather. . . .all of the jumping to conclusions from ~1000 miles away has worn me out!

 

[snorko]

"Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left."

 

[actaeon277]

Not the bathroom thing again!?!? (too soon?) But seriously...

And remember the golden hour. Many gunshot victims that would have otherwise not so life threatening injuries could have bled out due to the fact that they couldnt get to them soon enough. Pure speculation, but what started as walking wounded with relatively minor GSWs could escalate to critical after several hours of laying there or after being trampled. Im sure the death toll would have been less had they been able to get out quicker.

Yup. A lot of people could possibly been saved if they had made it to a hospital.

(not blaming the cops. just stating, getting to the hospital in a timely manner is important.)

 

[indykid]

Waiting to see his stuff laid out on a table like the police like to do after something like this. Would not be surprised to see he had at least one Beta-C mag. 100 rounds of no-reloading.

 

[T.Lex]

There's different math (actually not math at all) that isn't quite adding up to me.

This has been stated numerous times in various accounts of shooter's phone call to 911:

Gentili says the man started to say he did it for the Islamic State and started speaking in Arabic.

Yet, it appears the man was of Afghan descent. Arabic is not native to Afghanistan, so it is unlikely he learned it in the home.

Yes, I am aware that the Koran is primarily studied (and often memorized) in Arabic. But, I still think it unlikely he would speak it in that situation, other than to recite passages. If that is the case, he technically "was speaking Arabic" but reciting passages - and the passages in particular - should be what is reported. It isn't like he was trying to have a conversation in Arabic.

Also, could easily be that the dispatcher heard non-English, non-Spanish and decided it was Arabic. I assume the call was recorded, though, so someone must know what the real language was, and can report that.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Truth here. We're dispatched to incidents with violent people, we get told to stage somewhere a distance away. In the area, but not on top of the incident. Go running in and you end up dead, and as I was taught and I've told both partners and students, "There is nothin' in the world more useless than a dead EMT or paramedic."

Sure, you can train new people. What those newbies lack, though, is field experience. They don't know what they don't know, and don't know how to react to it when they start to find out. That's OK. It's part of the learning curve, and it's also why it's a good idea to have the noob out there with a much more experienced partner.

Full disclosure: The first scene I was on where there were guns being fired in an unknown direction, I was scared to death. I was also the more experienced guy on the unit. I said Bad Words (tm) and we took cover. We thought (and it later was confirmed that) the shooter was our patient, and his thinking was a little off that night, due to the head injury for which we were called to care for him. He was not shooting at us nor was he shooting with malice, but we didn't know that and he could have started to do so very easily, had he gotten it into his head to do so.

Nope. I'll let the guys with the training, protection, and armament to do so clear the scene first, and I will thank them and respect them for doing that job forever more.

Blessings,
Bill

I dont like that risk, personally. It really sucks, but do you have an expendable die, or a highly trained professional die? While it sucks for Joe or Jody Clubgoer to die, how many more die later or even in the near future because Patty Paramedic got wasted trying to save them? victim dies, more people can be saved after the scene is cleared as well as many more throughout the next several months as that medic goes about his business. If the medic is killed, he aint helping anyone else that night, or ever. And it will take months if not years to replace him.

It sucks, but I'm glad they dont go rushing in.

 

[HoughMade]

Orlando Mass Shooting Math Doesn't Add Up : snopes.com