The Great NRA 3 Rules vs. Cooper's 4 Rules Debate

[EPeter213]

Just a thought here... mandatory Gun Safety PSA as part of sentencing for any ND related conviction?

 

[bwframe]

How about a thoughtful conversation about ways to improve training without arguing about who's traditional set of rules may or may not be better?...

The only "thoughtful" coming out of this argument is the promotion of the thought that the rules don't apply to them.

If you really want to improve training then promote it, especially to those that "already know," "trained in the military," and "grew up with guns."

With the occasional crazy outlier, organized training events have to follow the four rules because instructors and students alike will not put up with guns being pointed at them or others for very long. Even the most die hard anti-rule #1'ers still must practice it whether they speak of it as such or not.

The shooting sports are also an area to promote safe gun handling. Quite honestly, you will not be allowed to stay and compete if you don't follow strict safe gun handling rules. If every gun owner participated in an organized competition once a month, 90% of gun safety issues would be eliminated.

 

[cbhausen]

The only "thoughtful" coming out of this argument is the promotion of the thought that the rules don't apply to them.

If you really want to improve training then promote it, especially to those that "already know," "trained in the military," and "grew up with guns."

With the occasional crazy outlier, organized training events have to follow the four rules because instructors and students alike will not put up with guns being pointed at them or others for very long. Even the most die hard anti-rule #1'ers still must practice it whether they speak of it as such or not.

The shooting sports are also an area to promote safe gun handling. Quite honestly, you will not be allowed to stay and compete if you don't follow strict safe gun handling rules. If every gun owner participated in an organized competition once a month, 90% of gun safety issues would be eliminated.

...and what exactly will get you disqualified??? Muzzle violations (breaking the 180-degree plane), finger on trigger, or being caught with a loaded firearm except when shooting a stage. And of course, one must unload and show clear after each stage...

Sounds a lot like NRA's 3 to me! Practical, observable, and correctable.

Maybe when we stop telling people to treat guns "as if they're loaded" all the time they might stop treating them "as if they're unloaded" when they're not.

Teach them to handle ALL guns safely ALL THE TIME WHETHER LOADED OR NOT. Pretty damn simple to me.

 

[bwframe]

Maybe when we stop telling people to treat guns "as if they're loaded"...

Follow the Four Rules and there are no "maybe's." They are proven successful.
Making excuses to not follow them is the problem.

 

[cbhausen]

We need another rule argument, I mean really...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-firearms-discussion/438398-fail-strong-one.html

And how would the person holding the baby Glock justify their behavior? By saying it isn't loaded. How about not giving this person that way out by simply saying you're handling a firearm unsafely because you are pointing it in an unsafe direction regardless of whether it's loaded or not. Safe direction followed by trigger discipline are the two specific actions which can prevent negligent shootings regardless of loaded vs. unloaded status.

All guns are always loaded is demonstrably false and treat every gun as if it is loaded does not teach anything and must immediately be followed up with the specific actions in NRA numbers one and two. Put front and center what actually works.

 

[cbhausen]

Follow the Four Rules and there are no "maybe's." They are proven successful.
Making excuses to not follow them is the problem.

What if the first rule might be getting in the way of actually making the other three a way of life, almost instinctual? Don't say it can't happen because it just might be happening. More often than we care to admit.

 

[bwframe]

And how would the person holding the baby Glock justify their behavior? By saying it isn't loaded...

Exactly. Following Rule #1, there is no such thing as "isn't loaded," as far as gun handling goes.
No justification, as was explained by the OP of that thread.

 

[cbhausen]

Exactly. There is no such thing, following Rule #1. No justification, as explained by the OP of that thread.

But there is such a thing as an unloaded firearm and we all know it. You're making my point for me. It doesn't matter if it's loaded or not! Stop pointing your damned guns at things you don't want to shoot!

 

[bwframe]

But there is such a thing as an unloaded firearm and we all know it...

Not as far as the way you handle guns. All guns are treated as loaded.
It works whether you want to argue all day about it or not. It is proven and works when followed.

The difficulty arises from those who are "too smart" for the Four Rules. Then the argument lends to NO rules.

 

[cbhausen]

Not as far as the way you handle guns. All guns are treated as loaded.
It works whether you want to argue all day about it or not. It is proven and works when followed.

The difficulty arises from those who are "too smart" for the Four Rules. Then the argument lends to NO rules.

You state the obvious here. But they aren't being followed enough enough now, are they? That's what I'm trying to get at. Really I used an attention grabbing title to get people to look at this thread and think so it isn't so much about three rules versus four as how do we teach people to be safer with firearms?

I'm not out to win an argument for argument's sake or to convince people "my" way is better, I'm out to get people to think about what actually works in the real world, what we can instill in others to make them safer when handling firearms. And therefore preserve life, property and our rights. Our Constitution may say God gave us the Second Amendment but our government can still take it away.

As of now I simply think NRA's 3 rules more clearly convey this than Cooper's 4 do. If something new is proposed and critical thought deems it superior I will adopt and teach it instead. But I can promise no set of gun handling rules I ever adopt will begin with a demonstrably false statement or a statement which is not observable and correctable.

Out on the line I've heard plenty of instructors shout "muzzle!" or "finger!" when they see a muzzle headed off in the wrong direction or a finger sneaking toward a trigger before the the handler intends to shoot. But I've never once heard a line instructor shout "Don't forget, it's always loaded!". That might seem... awkward.

 

[VERT]

The Canadians tell us ACTS and PROVE it safe:

The Vital Four ACTS of Firearm Safety - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

 

[JettaKnight]

Exactly. Following Rule #1, there is no such thing as "isn't loaded," as far as gun handling goes.
No justification, as was explained by the OP of that thread.

Yin and Yang - if there's a loaded, then there's an unloaded.

Plus, I just can't get past the concept of always loaded, it's a lie and an obvious impossibility. My brain (and a lot of other brains) can't handle it.


Can we at least all agree that Col. Cooper wasn't the best wordsmith or teacher? I used to struggle a bit when reading his articles... plus all those rote condition codes...

 

[EPeter213]

The Canadians tell us ACTS and PROVE it safe:

The Vital Four ACTS of Firearm Safety - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Awesome. I find no fault with these rules.

 

[hog slayer]

But there is such a thing as an unloaded firearm and we all know it. You're making my point for me. It doesn't matter if it's loaded or not! Stop pointing your damned guns at things you don't want to shoot!

You're beginning to sound agitated. Lot's of potty words and red letters and all caps. Didn't you want the conversation?

I hear all the time on INGO that "all guns are always loaded." I think that may be a bit of a bastardization of the "treat every weapon as if it were loaded." Let's assume that we want to dry fire. Now, we should ensure that we don't have a loaded gun, but if we treat it as if it were loaded, we wouldn't have any real issue if there was a bullet in the chamber when we pulled the trigger for the first time. The weapon would be pointed in such a direction that we would still be safe. Let's say we want to disassemble our Glock. Again, we should check the thing to ensure it isn't loaded. Even then we'll point it in a safe direction should it actually go bang, nothing of significance will happen. Maybe a bit of ringing in your ears.

As every Marine riflemen has been taught

Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire
Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

But what do they know?

Once you've disassembled a rifle/pistol whatever and it cannot function as a firearm it is no longer considered a weapon. You can point the barrel of an M9 anywhere you want so long as it is not still attached to an assembled pistol.

 

[TangoSierraEcho]

I like what the OP is driving to. How do we as responsible gun owners translate gun safety to those who are new or those who are ignorant. I don't believe that people get confused about the four rules or the three rules because most (not all) feel like "hey I know how to be safe and I follow whatever so I am safe". Kind of like when you fly a lot and ignore the flight attendant giving the safety brief before take off. How many new gun owners ever even get training of any sort? Where will they even learn the "rules" unless they look into it or read something. We are talking about a culture of people that play with plastic toy guns as kids and then grow up to hold real ones, how much of when they were kids bleeds into how they handle guns as adults? I believe if you really want to look at creating an atmosphere of safety through out the community you need to start at the point of sale. The person selling that gun should take the time to educate. How many of you have gone to a gun store and have had a person pointing a gun at you or waving it around with sales person just sitting there with the is my shift over yet look on their face quietly not saying a word?

Rules are great but as was pointed out in this thread, most NDs happen with the rules not even fitting the circumstance (pocket carry discharge, Holster discharge, etc). We need best practices, not a set of rules but rather a holistic approach to safe handling and use. We need to ensure that those best practices are translated to future gun owners at the point of sale, not weeks or months later when the gun is used as a prop for a stupid wedding picture.

Short story, my brother wanted to buy a S&W M&P Shield. I told him lets go together and handle one so you can see if it would be a good fit for you. So we went to one of those large box stores that sells guns and the attendant pulled one from the cabinet but before he handed it to my brother he looked at him and gave him direction and guidance on where he should point it, how he should test it (dry fire), and a few other tips. Never once did I say, hey we know, don't need to hear it but rather listened and all I could think of was how great that this sales person was taking the time to educate rather than just hand a deadly weapon off with little more than a set of rules and a box of ammo.

Rules are great, teaching is essential, learning is required. Too often those we are teaching aren't willing to learn

 

[JettaKnight]

As every Marine riflemen has been taught

Treat every weapon as if it were loaded
Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire
Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire.

But what do they know?

They know how to teach Marines to, in essence, kill and break stuff effectively.


Again, this whole argument isn't about which rules are better for any one person, or group of people, - by all means stick with what works best for you, but what do we teach to others with little or no gun training, especially those that aren't Marines like Susie Sixguns who bought a Charter Arms .38 because it comes in purple?


This is the question at hand; let's try and stick to it.


PS - What was taught to every Marine that came before they adopted Col. Cooper's rules? Why did they change? Was it because there was a more teachable, effective method?

 

[VERT]

PS - What was taught to every Marine that came before they adopted Col. Cooper's rules? Why did they change? Was it because there was a more teachable, effective method?

Before Col. Cooper? Probably something similar to what was in older text.

https://www.amazon.com/rifle-revolver-pistol-shooting/dp/B00087A76C

 

[hog slayer]

They know how to teach Marines to, in essence, kill and break stuff effectively.


Again, this whole argument isn't about which rules are better for any one person, or group of people, - by all means stick with what works best for you, but what do we teach to others with little or no gun training, especially those that aren't Marines like Susie Sixguns who bought a Charter Arms .38 because it comes in purple?


This is the question at hand; let's try and stick to it.


PS - What was taught to every Marine that came before they adopted Col. Cooper's rules? Why did they change? Was it because there was a more teachable, effective method?

I'm trying to locate a copy of the old manual. That's going far enough back that I haven't had any luck, yet. I do understand your point, but it will be interesting to see what was taught, if anything. I utilize the Marine reference often because they, along with the rest of our military force and much of our police forces use these 4 basic rules for some reason. A bunch of folks who use firearms recreation-ally have a different opinion. That seems quite common on INGO, and is representative of many encounters outside the martial arena. I'm sorry if I do not add good value to this discussion. I'll go back to playing in my sandbox.

Did I keep things on track with the below (my initial post)? What's the point if we change the rules every time we repeat them?

...

I hear all the time on INGO that "all guns are always loaded." I think that may be a bit of a bastardization of the "treat every weapon as if it were loaded." Let's assume that we want to dry fire. Now, we should ensure that we don't have a loaded gun, but if we treat it as if it were loaded, we wouldn't have any real issue if there was a bullet in the chamber when we pulled the trigger for the first time. The weapon would be pointed in such a direction that we would still be safe. Let's say we want to disassemble our Glock. Again, we should check the thing to ensure it isn't loaded. Even then we'll point it in a safe direction should it actually go bang, nothing of significance will happen. Maybe a bit of ringing in your ears.

...

Once you've disassembled a rifle/pistol whatever and it cannot function as a firearm it is no longer considered a weapon. You can point the barrel of an M9 anywhere you want so long as it is not still attached to an assembled pistol.

 

[EPeter213]

Thank you for a well worded and thoughtful response, Tango. I believe that is exactly what cb was asking for with his op.

As for the military/police using the four rules effectively, I think it may be due to the training environment. Basic training and police academy environments are vastly different from a Five minute, or even eight hour, safety course.

If you have the time, and a captive audience to create the mindset asked for with Cooper's 1, I am certain it is much more effective.

 

[TheJoker]

The Canadians tell us ACTS and PROVE it safe:

The Vital Four ACTS of Firearm Safety - Royal Canadian Mounted Police