The [Current Year] General Political/Salma Hayek discussion thread, part 4!!!

[nonobaddog]

That you didn't answer the question.

Again, I'm absolutely NOT judging the people of a certain age who have used that term. Indeed, before a certain time in our country (that timing probably depends on what part of the country), that WAS the polite term.

But, that's a useful barometer of what generation you are.

This isn't playing "gotcha." Not everyone who used/uses that word deserves to be in the same category as the neo-nazi/white supremacists who use that word.

I was raised in a VERY small town. Race was never an issue or even a topic of discussion. When I went to grade school we had eight grades in a one-room school with one teacher and no black students. Later, for high school, I was bused to a town big enough to have a high school and we still didn't have any black students. I don't remember using any term for black people at all because there was no reason to. When I first went to college there were a small number of black students(less than ten) that got along with everybody. Although I do remember in freshman calculus the professor was doing an involved calculation on the board and made a mistake along the way. When he finally found his mistake he said "Oh, there's the n****r in the woodpile." He then realized there was one black student in the class and tried to cover his ass by asking him if he was Indian. The student replied "I am negro." There was a lot of tension in the room for a while but the student defused it. He was already very popular and became even more so after that.

 

[BugI02]

To be clear, I'm not sure what he said was racist - I think it was a dick thing to say.

(I think he may be "racist" in the old-fashioned way that older people of nearly his generation are: they are just used to looking at people as different races and stereotyping them that way. Not in the neo-nazi/white supremacist way.)

I think the fact that you need to explain what 'type' of racism you're talking about is just further evidence that the terms racist/racism have been stretched beyond all meaning in order to make a multitude of sins sound nastier and more unconscionable than they likely are

Most of what SJWs want to denounce as racist is actually prejudiced (jamil has done an excellent job of covering this point previously). James Watson is quite likely racist (believes his own race is genetically superior to others). My Grandmother, GRHS, was prejudiced (born and raised in turn of the century Philadelphia, she had a preconcieved opinion about black people from which she could not be swayed)

Denouncing the merely prejudiced as racist is just a form of branding, containing no more veracity than most advertising. I'm surprised you would tolerate such inaccuracy

 

[T.Lex]

I was raised in a VERY small town. Race was never an issue or even a topic of discussion. When I went to grade school we had eight grades in a one-room school with one teacher and no black students. Later, for high school, I was bused to a town big enough to have a high school and we still didn't have any black students. I don't remember using any term for black people at all because there was no reason to. When I first went to college there were a small number of black students(less than ten) that got along with everybody. Although I do remember in freshman calculus the professor was doing an involved calculation on the board and made a mistake along the way. When he finally found his mistake he said "Oh, there's the n****r in the woodpile." He then realized there was one black student in the class and tried to cover his ass by asking him if he was Indian. The student replied "I am negro." There was a lot of tension in the room for a while but the student defused it. He was already very popular and became even more so after that.

Accepting all that at face value then, I don't think I need to explain the generational evolution of race perception in the US to you.

 

[BugI02]

To accept people the way they are... why yes, yes indeed.

Well, you seem quite the fount of wisdom on 'the way Trump is'

Still waiting for the acceptance, though

 

[BugI02]

...that we have been, are and always will be wrong...

That's funny right there, for it's dark humor as well as the kernel of truth it contains

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mongo59 again.

 

[nonobaddog]

Accepting all that at face value then, I don't think I need to explain the generational evolution of race perception in the US to you.

After a couple years of college I went into the Army and finished my education later. This was during the Viet Nam war and a lot of us went in the Army back then. That was where I heard every racist term ever conceived I think. Although the most blatant racism I saw was by black soldiers in Germany jumping on the tables in the PX or anywhere for that matter shouting "black power" and yelling "power check" over and over while all the black soldiers would raise a fist and yell "power check" back. It was quite an awakening to me to see how much race was on people's minds.

I disagree with your generalization of people by their age. Actually I disagree with generalization in general but you seem to want to rationalize it anyhow. So to each his own way I guess. I think generalization is just a way of grouping people and it is at the root of racism and a good thing to avoid.

 

[T.Lex]

After a couple years of college I went into the Army and finished my education later. This was during the Viet Nam war and a lot of us went in the Army back then. That was where I heard every racist term ever conceived I think. Although the most blatant racism I saw was by black soldiers in Germany jumping on the tables in the PX or anywhere for that matter shouting "black power" and yelling "power check" over and over while all the black soldiers would raise a fist and yell "power check" back. It was quite an awakening to me to see how much race was on people's minds.

I disagree with your generalization of people by their age. Actually I disagree with generalization in general but you seem to want to rationalize it anyhow. So to each his own way I guess. I think generalization is just a way of grouping people and it is at the root of racism and a good thing to avoid.

At a philosophical level, sure - generalization/categorization/stereotyping can lead to actual racism. Those are the mechanisms. But not all generalization/categorization/stereotyping is racism.

"American cars suck." While generalization/categorization/stereotyping is not racist.

"Older people say things that sound racist." While generalization/categorization/stereotyping is not racist.

A 90 year old Nobel laureate who says black people are dumb because of genetics is racist.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/01...ence-his-lab-just-stripped-him-of-his-titles/

That kind of thing goes beyond social norms.

My point is more about those social norms. They've evolved. Things that are considered racist now (appropriately) were not always considered to be that. So, people who learned socialization in that time period are somewhat excused (or should be IMHO) from that generalization about certain sentiments.

There are exceptions going both ways. Super-septuagenarians can certainly be racist. That same group of people can also have individuals who learned social norms differently, and are more modern in their approach.

Again, I think it is unfair to label Trump as racist for certain things he says that are a product of the time he was raised in.

 

[nonobaddog]

I think the fact that you need to explain what 'type' of racism you're talking about is just further evidence that the terms racist/racism have been stretched beyond all meaning in order to make a multitude of sins sound nastier and more unconscionable than they likely are

Most of what SJWs want to denounce as racist is actually prejudiced (jamil has done an excellent job of covering this point previously). James Watson is quite likely racist (believes his own race is genetically superior to others). My Grandmother, GRHS, was prejudiced (born and raised in turn of the century Philadelphia, she had a preconcieved opinion about black people from which she could not be swayed)

Denouncing the merely prejudiced as racist is just a form of branding, containing no more veracity than most advertising. I'm surprised you would tolerate such inaccuracy

Good point! Too often I fall into the trap of using the term 'racist' the way the left propaganda media uses it.
Even the term 'prejudice' is not about race. It is making a decision or judgement without all the facts. It has just as much application to jury duty as it does to racial relations. The meaning has been distorted to refer to 'racial prejudice' by frequent misuse.

 

[nonobaddog]

Generalization is a logic flaw. It is also flawed logic to assume all old people are racist based on some ex post facto standard. The terms used today may be considered racist some day, maybe tomorrow. That does not change the people - it merely changes the vernacular.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Generalization is a logic flaw. It is also flawed logic to assume all old people are racist based on some ex post facto standard. The terms used today may be considered racist some day, maybe tomorrow. That does not change the people - it merely changes the vernacular.

All racist? No. The vast majority with archaic views concerning people who aren't like themselves (ie religion, region, race, culture, national origin, sex)? Yes, most certainly. The same will be said of us in 50 or 60 years.

 

[T.Lex]

It is also flawed logic to assume all old people are racist based on some ex post facto standard. The terms used today may be considered racist some day, maybe tomorrow. That does not change the people - it merely changes the vernacular.

So we agree on that.

In terms of generalization, it certainly can be a logical fallacy. It can also just be an observation - like the one you stated.

 

[nonobaddog]

So we agree on that.

In terms of generalization, it certainly can be a logical fallacy. It can also just be an observation - like the one you stated.

To what are you referring that I stated?

A generalization is not an observation. A generalization is using an observation and extending it beyond its validity.
It is a member in the class of logic flaws.

 

[mmpsteve]

Well, at least for me, acceptance of that word depends on the age of the person saying it. While generally it's considered, today, to be offensive, the younger you are, the less acceptable it is. Older people 70+, of a certain generation, get a pass, because while still offensive, their intent is to be polite (mostly). The same applies to "colored."

This whole label-the-color thing has me so confused. Mr. K., what is the 'proper' label? And please don't say African-American. Not only is it too many syllables to use eloquently, but it's not even true, unless you emigrated from Kenya in your lifetime. Most black Americans are no more 'African' than I am 'English-Irish'. Imagine if I insisted to be called English-Irish-Hetro-American as my identity label. It's getting ridiculous.

p.s.: and if there is a 'proper' label, how do we account for Black Pride, Black Panthers, NAACP, BLM, etc ... (or is black the proper term?)

.

 

[nonobaddog]

In the past, blacks have dictated the acceptable label, only to change it periodically and make past labels unacceptable. And they have a valid point. Really it isn't the particular label used but rather the use of any label itself that is objectionable.

 

[Phase2]

In real news, Theresa May's pathetic Brexit plan was overwhelmingly voted down 432-202. It has been called historic as the largest such defeat in history. A no-confidence vote has been called to see about replacing her. As bad as she is, it is very possible that she would be replaced by Jeremy Corbyn who would be far worse.

Sorry Britain. Your leaders have been fighting the will of the people (Brexit) to this sorry point. You didn't deserve this.

 

[jamil]

I think the Wounded Knee reference is either ignorance or dickish.

The closest modern corollary I can think of is if someone told a gun rights advocate to hold a press conference at Ruby Ridge or the Davidian compound.

And, I think there's a generational thing in the US that amounts to more than just the human-nature default to generalize people. That's actually a defense of him. Trump is at the tail end of a generation in which racial attributes were more observational than emotional. Some of my most dear family members are part of that generation, too. That's just the way they were raised.

If the ruby ridge thing tells a greater truth in a humorous way, it’s fair game. But the example you gave made it about ruby ridge and not the greater truth about the subject, whoever that is. As I’ve said, Trump’s tweet wasn’t about wounded knee. It was mocking a woman pretending to be something she’s not for personal gain.

And yes, there is generational racism. That describes my dad. He said some pretty cringey stuff. But he was born before WWI, and raised in the Deep South. He didn’t think he was a racist, but he was. The n-word flowed too easily for him because he was born and raised in a time and place where it wasn’t a taboo.

I’m okay with some things becoming a taboo. Racial slurs which have no other purpose belong in the realm of taboo. But does Wounded Knee? That depends on context. It should be taboo for the POTUS to use it in the way he did. But if Trump were just a billionaire playboy, mocking someone like fauxahauntus, I have no problem with it. It has nothing at all to do with disparaging Native Americans. That shouldn’t be a taboo.

 

[Kutnupe14]

This whole label-the-color thing has me so confused. Mr. K., what is the 'proper' label? And please don't say African-American. Not only is it too many syllables to use eloquently, but it's not even true, unless you emigrated from Kenya in your lifetime. Most black Americans are no more 'African' than I am 'English-Irish'. Imagine if I insisted to be called English-Irish-Hetro-American as my identity label. It's getting ridiculous.

p.s.: and if there is a 'proper' label, how do we account for Black Pride, Black Panthers, NAACP, BLM, etc ... (or is black the proper term?)

.

I say black. That works for me, but I don't speak for everybody. Tone and intent is what makes labels acceptable or not.

 

[bwframe]

Democratic National Committee out as Women's March sponsor amid anti-Semitism controversy

 

[Mongo59]

I say black. That works for me, but I don't speak for everybody. Tone and intent is what makes labels acceptable or not.

It would seem that if the word is printed then it is free game to add any tone or intent you desire to strengthen one's own desire and/or weaken others position.

So how does that tally go, if it also helps my stance: yeah, otherwise: boo?

All this "yeah me" and "screw you" posting gets old quick. I will concede the fact I am not perfect, not even close, but I still wish to learn as a result from the time I spend here. I honestly desire to glean from others observations to improve, modify or add to my own understanding.

The problem I am having is this intellectual "ping pong" going on is about as inviting as the prospect of a vasectomy by sledgehammer.

I really do think you have things to teach but your delivery comes off as so caustic and confrontational that I have a hard time seeing past that to the actual content. I may be wrong here but I don't really think that is your intent, I hope not anyway.

There is an old saying that goes, "they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care". There may be times to give your point with the "bark on" but it won't be every time.

Sorry to call you out, it is not my intent to weaken your station in any way. In my novice way I just wanted to tell you that I wish to be able to see things from your point of view but, intentionally or not, you are making it hard.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

It's dickish, not towards Warren, but to the people (Sioux Nation) that event effected. Anytime one makes light of such a solemn event, it kinda makes you a dick. And for the record, I've done it before too, so I'm not on any high horse. If someone claimed to be Jewish, and wasn't, making jokes about them wearing a Star of David, and taking a shower, would probably fall on the dickish end of the spectrum.

Point well made and an apt analogy.

(gotta spread rep)