the .458

[brett T]

Looking into the .458 and the .450 and am wondering if the .458 will get any cheaper to reload in time if it will that's what i am going to go with other wise I am going with the 450 cus of expense. I only am looking into both because I like the idea that you can deer hunt with them in Indiana. I an a ML guy myself when it comes to deer hunting but just maybe with time one of these guys will make me take it out on some hunts just because I can.

 

[kludge]

Both have similar ballistics to the .45-70.

If you're a ML guy and already using .45 cal pistol bullets in sabots, then you can use the same bullets (like the very excellent Hornady 240gr and 300gr XTP-Mag) to reload the .450 Bushmaster, and cost is quite reasonable for those bullets. Might even be some blems right now on Midway USA, to stock up on. That would be enough to swing the balance for me. (Depending on your ML and your load, the ML might be better off using the 250gr XTP though, I know I do in mine, and I save the XTP-Mag bullets for the .454 Casull)

If you're using .44 cal bullets in sabots, maybe you should switch.

FYI, Hornady makes a pointy nose 250gr bullet for the .450.

If you plan on hunting bison then I guess I might go with the .458 SOCOM, for the selection of heavier bullets available.

 

[brett T]

Thanks for the advise I use the TC 250gr with the black sabot in my apex but am pretty sure they are close or not the same as hornady and there are a lot of ml bullets to play with.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I've not found the .458 socom particularly expensive to reload. Brass life is 10-12 firings and cast bullets are reasonably cheap (cheaper now that I cast my own).

 

[brett T]

It looks like im going back to my first instinct for the .450 looking like the .458 has to much hype instead of being practical. At least for my use.

 

[ar1973]

Im only wondering when the DNR is going to put a stop to the .458 and .450 as the rules state only rifles in pistol calibers can be used .both these rounds where developed for the government as AR platform rounds . yes they fall into the leingth requirments but where not, and are not marketed a pistol calibers. just my 2 cents.

 

[kludge]

FYI the rules don't say "pistol caliber" anywhere and never have. The DNR is well aware of the "rifle" calibers and wildcats being used.

 

[Broom_jm]

Im only wondering when the DNR is going to put a stop to the .458 and .450 as the rules state only rifles in pistol calibers can be used .both these rounds where developed for the government as AR platform rounds . yes they fall into the leingth requirments but where not, and are not marketed a pistol calibers. just my 2 cents.

From everything I've read, the odds are far greater that the regulations will continue to be opened up, not more restrictive. Frankly, the 450BM and 458Socom are no more likely to result in ricochets or long-range accidents than a ML or shotgun slug...less likely than the slug, actually.

Look for Indiana to eventually acknowledge that the regulations disallowing most rifle cartridges are not indicated for most of the state. We'll probably wind up with regulations similar to Wisconsin, where the restrictions are localized to metro areas, with most of the state allowing the use of standard deer hunting rifle cartridges. This is particularly true if the deer population proves to be growing faster than us hunters can control it.

Of the two rounds, I would prefer the 450BM, personally.

 

[Cerberus]

Broom, I sure hope your predictions come true. I have a nice .308 that hasn't seen the deer woods since I moved across the river. I hate hunting with slugs.

 

[kwatters]

FYI the rules don't say "pistol caliber" anywhere and never have. The DNR is well aware of the "rifle" calibers and wildcats being used.

yep, from the "guide"

Firearms: Shotguns, handguns, rifles with
legal cartridges, muzzleloading long guns
and muzzleloading handguns are legal during the firearm season. Only muzzleloading
firearms are legal during the muzzleloader
season. It is illegal to have a silencer while
hunting. Laser sights are legal for hunting
deer.
Hunters may carry more than one type of
legal firearm when hunting during the firearm
season only.
Shotguns must be 10-, 12-, 16- or 20-
gauge or .410 bore loaded with slugs or
saboted bullets. Rifled slug barrels are
permitted. Combination rifle-shotguns are not
allowed.
Muzzleloading firearms must be .44
caliber or larger, loaded with a single bullet
of at least .357 caliber. Saboted bullets are
allowed, provided the bullet is .357 caliber
or larger. A muzzleloading firearm must
be loaded from the muzzle. Multiple-barrel
muzzleloading long guns are allowed.
Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a
minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and
have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches
are legal to use only during the deer firearm
season. Some cartridges legal for deer
hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40
Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44
Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester,
.45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475
Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express,
and .500 S&W.

 

[kludge]

The "guide" is merely the interpretation of the rules. There are/have been things in the guide which I have disagreed with from a legal/interpretation standpoint. The "rules" are found here:

http://www.in.gov/legislative/iac/T03120/A00090.PDF?

See 312 IAC 9-3-3.

 

[Cerberus]

yep, from the "guide"

Firearms: Shotguns, handguns, rifles with
legal cartridges, muzzleloading long guns
and muzzleloading handguns are legal during the firearm season. Only muzzleloading
firearms are legal during the muzzleloader
season. It is illegal to have a silencer while
hunting. Laser sights are legal for hunting
deer.
Hunters may carry more than one type of
legal firearm when hunting during the firearm
season only.
Shotguns must be 10-, 12-, 16- or 20-
gauge or .410 bore loaded with slugs or
saboted bullets. Rifled slug barrels are
permitted. Combination rifle-shotguns are not
allowed.
Muzzleloading firearms must be .44
caliber or larger, loaded with a single bullet
of at least .357 caliber. Saboted bullets are
allowed, provided the bullet is .357 caliber
or larger. A muzzleloading firearm must
be loaded from the muzzle. Multiple-barrel
muzzleloading long guns are allowed.
Rifles with cartridges that fire a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a
minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and
have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches
are legal to use only during the deer firearm
season. Some cartridges legal for deer
hunting include the .357 Magnum, .38-.40
Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44
Magnum, .44 Special, .44-.40 Winchester,
.45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .475
Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .50 Action Express,
and .500 S&W.

Hasn't the max length of acceptable rifle cartridges been lengthed to 1.8" now?

 

[Broom_jm]

Hasn't the max length of acceptable rifle cartridges been lengthed to 1.8" now?

Yes, this fall you will be able to use cartridges up to 1.800" in length.

 

[kludge]

The guide hasn't been updated yet, but the IAC that I linked has been.

 

[EPD1102]

It looks like im going back to my first instinct for the .450 looking like the .458 has to much hype instead of being practical. At least for my use.

What's the "hype" on the .458 SOCOM? I went with the SOCOM because I read a lot about bolt breakages with the .459 due to it supposedly operating at much higher pressures. I liked the ballistics of the .450 better but I've been very happy with my .458.

 

[bigmedicine]

Between the guy shooting a 30-06 out of his contender and the guy shooting his .458 SOCOM, I'll feel safer next to the actual rifle.

 

[Broom_jm]

Between the guy shooting a 30-06 out of his contender and the guy shooting his .458 SOCOM, I'll feel safer next to the actual rifle.

OK, for the record: You can't fire a 30-'06 cartridge from a "Contender". You would need an Encore for that.

Why would you feel safer next to one than the other? A single-shot pistol is more dangerous than a semi-automatic 45 caliber rifle? Because of the range? If you're standing next to the shooter, how does that matter? LOL

It is this kind of "logic" that has deer hunters in Indiana stuck with such ridiculous regulations in the first place. The fact of the matter is that ANY gun fired without a sure back-drop is going to be unsafe, whether it's a sabot from a ML or slug gun, a 30 caliber bullet from a specialty hunting pistol, or a 45 out of an AR. To think otherwise is to buy into the absurd notion that Indiana's restrictions on what gun you can hunt deer with have ANYTHING to do with safety.

Go back and do your research...you'll find that rifles were prohibited to limit effective range, so that a recovering deer herd would not be over-harvested. Period.

 

[bigmedicine]

OK, for the record: You can't fire a 30-'06 cartridge from a "Contender". You would need an Encore for that.

Why would you feel safer next to one than the other? A single-shot pistol is more dangerous than a semi-automatic 45 caliber rifle? Because of the range? If you're standing next to the shooter, how does that matter? LOL

It is this kind of "logic" that has deer hunters in Indiana stuck with such ridiculous regulations in the first place. The fact of the matter is that ANY gun fired without a sure back-drop is going to be unsafe, whether it's a sabot from a ML or slug gun, a 30 caliber bullet from a specialty hunting pistol, or a 45 out of an AR. To think otherwise is to buy into the absurd notion that Indiana's restrictions on what gun you can hunt deer with have ANYTHING to do with safety.

Go back and do your research...you'll find that rifles were prohibited to limit effective range, so that a recovering deer herd would not be over-harvested. Period.

I do appreciate your post; I should have been more precise with my wording. Quite right on contender vs encore. My point was that I do believe that the average shooter can shoot an AR platform easier/more accurately than a encore (on the basis of sighting plane only). To your point, cartridge is somewhat irrelevant as it pertains to the intent of my comment; it's all about the person behind the trigger.

As far as your other advice regarding what I research and my logic, well, just have a nice day. You may find that people are more receptive to responses that don't make incorrect assumptions of what a person does or does not know.

 

[Broom_jm]

I do appreciate your post; I should have been more precise with my wording. Quite right on contender vs encore. My point was that I do believe that the average shooter can shoot an AR platform easier/more accurately than a encore (on the basis of sighting plane only). To your point, cartridge is somewhat irrelevant as it pertains to the intent of my comment; it's all about the person behind the trigger.

As far as your other advice regarding what I research and my logic, well, just have a nice day. You may find that people are more receptive to responses that don't make incorrect assumptions of what a person does or does not know.

I've been around a handful of guys who shoot single-shot, specialty hunting pistols and never felt even the slightest reservations about doing so. I can not say that about some of the guys at the range with an AR. I can't begin to fathom how the length of a firearm, or its sight plane, has any impact on its relative safety. Does this mean guys who deer hunt with a 6" 44 Magnum revolver are less safe than the ones shooting a 15" Encore?

I did not mean to imply you were ignorant of the REAL reason Indiana implemented short-range firearms regulations, but it was certainly not done for the sake of safety, back in the late 50's. What I find frustrating is that so many people buy into the notion that modern centerfire rifle cartridges are somehow "dangerous", and that the Indiana regulations are designed to protect us from them. That's hogwash and the results of allowing PCR long guns over the last several years has proven this to be true.

If the deer herd in Indiana were to greatly exceed social carrying capacity, the need to extend effective range would likely precipitate the legalization of "standard" rifles for deer hunting. Would you support that change or do you think it would be unsafe?

 

[djl02]

I loaded these for around 730.00 plus still have 250 pieces of new brass left.