Tactical Reload vs. Reload w/Retention

[AD Marc]

It is not that hard to know whether I have dumped a Mag or if I am at half or almost full.

Then why do so many people have problems with it? Like I said, if you're going to dismiss the premise, then there is no point arguing it with you.

 

[esrice]

I just have a problem understanding why you would add a step/manipulation when you know the weapon is not empty.

The non-diagnostic guys take a "one size fits all" approach. The thinking is that the fewer options a person has, the quicker and easier it will be to decide and act (Hicks Law). To do this they will sacrifice a few things (like that additional round) for the perceived greater benefit of speed, reliability, or efficiency.

There is such a thing as too robust a tool, and tool boxes can be too full.

As with all things, I think there is a balance to be struck.

 

[AD Marc]

Question Jeremy. How do you know when your gun is empty?

 

[jeremy]

Then why do so many people have problems with it? Like I said, if you're going to dismiss the premise, then there is no point arguing it with you.

I am just trying to understand the reason for it...

You are just explaining it as this is the way you do it because I say it is the way you do it. Not really much thought behind that. In 11 years in Combat I have never had a problem with it. I have never had a Soldier have a Problem with it as you describe. But, I am basing this on my observations and experience in Combat, not off of a report, and not because someone is teaching it this way now so this is how we do it now. If I were to see ANY of my Soldiers using this technique in Training I would smoke the bejesus out of them, and allow them to have more time manipulating their weapons. As I said earlier, I never Gamble with my life and I'll go one further. I never Gamble with the Lives of those I instruct for Combat.

Am I wrong for doing that?!
Possibly...

So why don't you explain to some of us the actual why of the technique you think makes the World of Weapons Manipulation better. So far you have just thrown out there this is the way to do it, cause I said to do it this way. Not good enough for some of us.

 

[jeremy]

Question Jeremy. How do you know when your gun is empty?

How do I know when My weapon is empty?
Several answers to this.
It sounds different.
Its weight is different.
Its recoil has changed.

And yes you can tell all these things in the midst of a gunfight...

 

[OEF5]

Question Jeremy. How do you know when your gun is empty?

Ok...in a combat or HIGH stress you are going bang bang bang...then either you see the slide lock, feel it, or the gun goes CLICK. If the gun goes click then you got right to imidiate action. where you are going to check the chamber, and put a fresh mag in and rack the slide.

If I'm shooting as I said earlier and I shoot 3 rounds and I have time and I put a new mag in I don't need to rack the slide it's not EMPTY. I know it's not empty, if I have the time to do the reload I can even take the time to look to see if that mag was empty or not. I can't think of any pistol mag that would fall on the ground in any fashion that you would not be able to see the round, or the back of the mag for a quick second. If I'm doing the Retention method then I WOULD know 100% that the mag isn't empty.

If I have the time hell I could even do a press check, but in a gun fight I'm probably not going to have the time. In that case I'm just topping off as stated before.

Let me also give you this example as it did happen to me...I was shooting a set of targets from cover and had to move to the next cover to engage the next set of targets. I knew that mag was not empty as I knew I had only fired 10 rounds. While on the move to the next cover I did a reload, I didn't rack the slide, just put a fresh mag in. Got to the cover fired, got a bang, got a hit, then click!!!! When I did my reload I didn't get my mag seated fully, had I done your method I'd have not even gotten that shot off because when I put the mag in while moving from cover to cover when I racked the slide it would have hit the ground. When it went click I went into imediate action drill. Tap RACK bang...

Had that mag fallen out after the shot I would have done the same action drill but would have just pulled a fresh mag from the belt and would have had to put the weapon back into battery anyway with a new mag.

 

[the1kidd03]

How do I know when My weapon is empty?
Several answers to this.
It sounds different.
Its weight is different.
Its recoil has changed.

And yes you can tell all these things in the midst of a gunfight...

Ok...in a combat or HIGH stress you are going bang bang bang...then either you see the slide lock, feel it, or the gun goes CLICK. If the gun goes click then you got right to imidiate action. where you are going to check the chamber, and put a fresh mag in and rack the slide.

If I'm shooting as I said earlier and I shoot 3 rounds and I have time and I put a new mag in I don't need to rack the slide it's not EMPTY. I know it's not empty, if I have the time to do the reload I can even take the time to look to see if that mag was empty or not. I can't think of any pistol mag that would fall on the ground in any fashion that you would not be able to see the round, or the back of the mag for a quick second. If I'm doing the Retention method then I WOULD know 100% that the mag isn't empty.

If I have the time hell I could even do a press check, but in a gun fight I'm probably not going to have the time. In that case I'm just topping off as stated before.

Let me also give you this example as it did happen to me...I was shooting a set of targets from cover and had to move to the next cover to engage the next set of targets. I knew that mag was not empty as I knew I had only fired 10 rounds. While on the move to the next cover I did a reload, I didn't rack the slide, just put a fresh mag in. Got to the cover fired, got a bang, got a hit, then click!!!! When I did my reload I didn't get my mag seated fully, had I done your method I'd have not even gotten that shot off because when I put the mag in while moving from cover to cover when I racked the slide it would have hit the ground. When it went click I went into imediate action drill. Tap RACK bang...

Had that mag fallen out after the shot I would have done the same action drill but would have just pulled a fresh mag from the belt and would have had to put the weapon back into battery anyway with a new mag.

I've always been able to feel it when my weapon doesn't function properly or run dry, regardless of the situation. It may take a lot of rounds down range to familiarize yourself with the weapon's "feel" but if one practices as "they should" you will easily feel the differences.

 

[indyjoe]

Any time something is different, I rotate the pistol up just a tad. That is enough to diagnose the condition of the pistol.

In battery - Tap rack fire
Out of battery - Slam on the back and get back into the fight.
Stove Pipe - Rack the brass out with my fingers
Double Feed - Lock back, Drop mag, rack rack rack, emergency reload with rack (this is often a mag issue, so bye, bye mag.)
Locked back - Emergency reload with rack

Those are what I train for. Possibly I missed something. If a tactical reload is happening under any duress, I'm leaving those couple rounds on the ground for now.

 

[OEF5]

Oh heck the party is over now, who let the Marine in????


AD seriously man we are not trying to bash you, you made a statement about how you train, that you put a mag in and do a rack...We just want to know why if the gun isn't empty. We are talking a tactical reload not the gun is empty reload.





EDIT: Note that after the Marine came in....thread died.....Good job Kidd!

 

[the1kidd03]

Oh heck the party is over now, who let the Marine in????


AD seriously man we are not trying to bash you, you made a statement about how you train, that you put a mag in and do a rack...We just want to know why if the gun isn't empty. We are talking a tactical reload not the gun is empty reload.

yeah right, the party just started

 

[the1kidd03]

EDIT: Note that after the Marine came in....thread died.....Good job Kidd!

It's what we jarheads are good at....

 

[AD Marc]

You guys seem to be relying on a lot of senses, many of which may not be available to you to diagnose issues with your gun.

How do you "feel" the difference between an empty handgun and a double feed. The slide is to the rear, the trigger is dead and the difference in weight is negligible. Please answer for us non super-humans.

 

[jeremy]

You guys seem to be relying on a lot of senses, many of which may not be available to you to diagnose issues with your gun.

What do you suggest for people who are not super human?

LOL!

 

[jeremy]

You guys seem to be relying on a lot of senses, many of which may not be available to you to diagnose issues with your gun.

How do you "feel" the difference between an empty handgun and a double feed. The slide is to the rear, the trigger is dead and the difference in weight is negligible. Please answer for us non super-humans.

Since you edited...

Slide to the rear.
Trigger "Dead".
and the Difference in weight is negligible.

Find Cover...
Malfunction Drills...

By the way nice of you to change the parameters without answer the question a couple of us have asked. No more free answers from me until you can answer my question...

 

[AD Marc]

Any time something is different, I rotate the pistol up just a tad. That is enough to diagnose the condition of the pistol.

In battery - Tap rack fire
Out of battery - Slam on the back and get back into the fight.
Stove Pipe - Rack the brass out with my fingers
Double Feed - Drop mag, rack rack rack, emergency reload with rack (this is often a mag issue, so bye, bye mag.)
Locked back - Emergency reload with rack

Those are what I train for. Possibly I missed something. If a tactical reload is happening under any duress, I'm leaving those couple rounds on the ground for now.

In battery: how did you identify this? was it though visual reference? slap rack probably solves it.
out of battery: How did you identify this? you just slammed an out of spec cartridge into your gun and locked it up. Doesn't slap rack also solve this and do it better?
Stove pipe: how how did you identify this? Doesn't tap rack also solve this?

You can see where i'm going with this. There's a lot of room to simplify.

 

[jeremy]

In battery: how did you identify this? was it though visual reference? slap rack probably solves it.
out of battery: How did you identify this? you just slammed an out of spec cartridge into your gun and locked it up. Doesn't slap rack also solve this and do it better?
Stove pipe: how how did you identify this? Doesn't tap rack also solve this?

Seem to be using a LOT of Senses there to me...

You can see where i'm going with this. There's a lot of room to simplify.

Yes trying to threadjack...

Still waiting to know why one should rack the slide when doing a tactical reload from a partial Mag...

 

[AD Marc]

I answered that question, you dismissed the premise to the answer. There's no further conversation to be had.

 

[jeremy]

I answered that question, you dismissed the premise to the answer. There's no further conversation to be had.

Not really the way I see the Conversation.

You have yet to articulate the why of doing it your way with anything objective.
All I want to know is an articuable reason for racking the slide, after doing a partial Mag change during a lull in the fight. With the Reasons have given so far, I should rack the slide after every triggger squeeze. I don't know for sure if a round has been chambered, or if the weapon has returned to battery without actively observing it...

 

[AD Marc]

If anyone with an open mind wants to learn more about non-diagnostic gun handling, Paul Gomez has some good videos on the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9nQe-6vHI&feature=plcp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XDcfz9_l8&feature=plcp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08zhWgW2ttY&feature=plcp

James Yeager also speaks on it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLUoNyO52XI

 

[jeremy]

If anyone with an open mind wants to learn more about non-diagnostic gun handling, Paul Gomez has some good videos on the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt9nQe-6vHI&feature=plcp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XDcfz9_l8&feature=plcp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08zhWgW2ttY&feature=plcp

Now was that so damn hard. Still not a real answer from you though, but nothing like sliding the discussion off to a Video on Youtube when one cannot supply an answer themselves.