Surrendering your weapon

[chicken89]

i find it simple- put yourself in the officer's shoes...
you ask the person you stop if s/he has a firearm. "yes"
where is your firearm located? "on my hip"
WHAT DO YOU DO?
my reaction- "step out of the car, hands behind your back"
my reasoning- where are you going to grab your license from? typically your back pocket. ... where is your gun? beside your license. so where do i see you reaching? your hip/back pocket area. how do i know what you are reaching for?
my reaction- cuff you, take firearm, place it on MY vehicle (in front of where i will run license AND LTCH), and sit you on the curb still handcuffed. call for backup. when backup up arrives, i will have already called for status of LTCH. if it comes back valid, the other officer will uncuff you. after license checks out and paperwork is done, your firearm will be placed in your back seat, and you will be allowed to return to car. with paperwork and be on your way.

if your original response to "where is it located" is "underseat/backseat", you will be removed from vehicle and all further conversations will be done outside the car (uncuffed). if response is "in trunk", you can stay in your car.
so to give my view of "surrendering your weapon". it is for my safety and yours. i don't know you. i don't know where you are reaching, and i don't know what is there. if you say you have a weapon, and i feel that a "quick reach", or you leaning "too far forward to grab wallet" gives impression you may have other thoughts, my gun will be drawn.
i'm sorry if i offend you. talk to my supervisor about how i hurt your feelings. in the end, we both go home without extra holes. wanna take me to court? hey, then there will be court precedent to answer this question. but in long run, we still go home without holes.

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

my reaction- cuff you, take firearm, place it on MY vehicle (in front of where i will run license AND LTCH), and sit you on the curb still handcuffed. call for backup. when backup up arrives, i will have already called for status of LTCH. if it comes back valid, the other officer will uncuff you. after license checks out and paperwork is done, your firearm will be placed in your back seat, and you will be allowed to return to car. with paperwork and be on your way.

chicken, why the cuffs??? It seems to me that once you separate me from my firearm, you should feel safe. I have just presented you with a LTCH, and in a traffic stop, you most likely have no reason to suspect I am a danger to you. It seems all your actions are based on an assumption that I am a criminal with a forged LTCH. This sort of response is an example of why I've decided not to present my LTCH to you up front as a courtesy.

 

[grimor]

i find it simple- put yourself in the officer's shoes...
you ask the person you stop if s/he has a firearm. "yes"
where is your firearm located? "on my hip"
WHAT DO YOU DO?
my reaction- "step out of the car, hands behind your back"
my reasoning- where are you going to grab your license from? typically your back pocket. ... where is your gun? beside your license. so where do i see you reaching? your hip/back pocket area. how do i know what you are reaching for?
my reaction- cuff you, take firearm, place it on MY vehicle (in front of where i will run license AND LTCH), and sit you on the curb still handcuffed. call for backup. when backup up arrives, i will have already called for status of LTCH. if it comes back valid, the other officer will uncuff you. after license checks out and paperwork is done, your firearm will be placed in your back seat, and you will be allowed to return to car. with paperwork and be on your way.

if your original response to "where is it located" is "underseat/backseat", you will be removed from vehicle and all further conversations will be done outside the car (uncuffed). if response is "in trunk", you can stay in your car.
so to give my view of "surrendering your weapon". it is for my safety and yours. i don't know you. i don't know where you are reaching, and i don't know what is there. if you say you have a weapon, and i feel that a "quick reach", or you leaning "too far forward to grab wallet" gives impression you may have other thoughts, my gun will be drawn.
i'm sorry if i offend you. talk to my supervisor about how i hurt your feelings. in the end, we both go home without extra holes. wanna take me to court? hey, then there will be court precedent to answer this question. but in long run, we still go home without holes.

your attitude and statements are why people don't like cops. Not only are your actions unwarranted, your attitude about it is appalling.

 

[Roadie]

i find it simple- put yourself in the officer's shoes...
you ask the person you stop if s/he has a firearm. "yes"
where is your firearm located? "on my hip"
WHAT DO YOU DO?
my reaction- "step out of the car, hands behind your back"
my reasoning- where are you going to grab your license from? typically your back pocket. ... where is your gun? beside your license. so where do i see you reaching? your hip/back pocket area. how do i know what you are reaching for?
my reaction- cuff you, take firearm, place it on MY vehicle (in front of where i will run license AND LTCH), and sit you on the curb still handcuffed. call for backup. when backup up arrives, i will have already called for status of LTCH. if it comes back valid, the other officer will uncuff you. after license checks out and paperwork is done, your firearm will be placed in your back seat, and you will be allowed to return to car. with paperwork and be on your way.

if your original response to "where is it located" is "underseat/backseat", you will be removed from vehicle and all further conversations will be done outside the car (uncuffed). if response is "in trunk", you can stay in your car.
so to give my view of "surrendering your weapon". it is for my safety and yours. i don't know you. i don't know where you are reaching, and i don't know what is there. if you say you have a weapon, and i feel that a "quick reach", or you leaning "too far forward to grab wallet" gives impression you may have other thoughts, my gun will be drawn.
i'm sorry if i offend you. talk to my supervisor about how i hurt your feelings. in the end, we both go home without extra holes. wanna take me to court? hey, then there will be court precedent to answer this question. but in long run, we still go home without holes.

There already is precedent, as determined by the Indiana Supreme Court, once the LTCH is produced, then the gun is a non-issue. So, in other words, you are willing to break the law, under the false pretense of "Officer Safety".

Not to mention, one would think Logic would tell you that someone isn't going to:
A: Volunteer that they have a gun
B: Hand you their LTCH
C: THEN shoot you.

Basically, you have zero respect for citizens rights. Great job Officer Friendly!

Tell you what, you find ONE case in this country where a citizen has done A, B and then C as listed above, and I will issue an apology and retract my statements. Until then, you are part of what is wrong with some LEOs, that give the rest of them a bad name.

 

[RTroy29035]

Officer Safety

In a lot of the responses I hear the same theme, "officer safety".
While I can completely understand that an officer would want to ensure that they are going to remain safe while performing their jobs it does beg to question that if 1) I have a valid permit and 2) I am honest with the officer in stating that I have a weapon then on what grounds does the officer have to be concerned about his safety?
BY providing a valid permit the officer should then know that I have not committed a felony or have anything in my past that should cause him to deem me a threat to his safety. If I have stated honestly that I have a weapon he then know that it exists and can be more attentive to the situation. Honestly how many police officers have been fired on after someone has stated that they have a legal weapon in the car? If I had any intention of harming the officer the last thing myself, or anyone else, would do would be to let the officer know I had a weapon.
The last thing I want to have happen is for an officer to take possession, if only for a moment, of my weapon and have it inadvertently discharge while in his possession. Just because someone is a police officer does not make them an expert on any or all weapons. I am sure most people here have seen the video of the officer in the class room shooting himself with a hand gun after telling everyone in the class how qualified he was to handle the weapon.
I truly appreciate all officers of the law and appreciate the dangers that they face but my appreciation does not surpass common sense.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU]YouTube - DEA Agent[/ame]

 

[ATM]

i find it simple- put yourself in the officer's shoes...
you ask the person you stop if s/he has a firearm. "yes"
where is your firearm located? "on my hip"
WHAT DO YOU DO?

Here's a more realistic one:

You ask the person you stop if s/he has a firearm. "Why am I being detained, officer?"
uh...
WHAT DO YOU DO?

 

[GuyRelford]

i find it simple- put yourself in the officer's shoes...
you ask the person you stop if s/he has a firearm. "yes"
where is your firearm located? "on my hip"
WHAT DO YOU DO?
my reaction- "step out of the car, hands behind your back"
my reasoning- where are you going to grab your license from? typically your back pocket. ... where is your gun? beside your license. so where do i see you reaching? your hip/back pocket area. how do i know what you are reaching for?
my reaction- cuff you, take firearm, place it on MY vehicle (in front of where i will run license AND LTCH), and sit you on the curb still handcuffed. call for backup. when backup up arrives, i will have already called for status of LTCH. if it comes back valid, the other officer will uncuff you. after license checks out and paperwork is done, your firearm will be placed in your back seat, and you will be allowed to return to car. with paperwork and be on your way.

if your original response to "where is it located" is "underseat/backseat", you will be removed from vehicle and all further conversations will be done outside the car (uncuffed). if response is "in trunk", you can stay in your car.
so to give my view of "surrendering your weapon". it is for my safety and yours. i don't know you. i don't know where you are reaching, and i don't know what is there. if you say you have a weapon, and i feel that a "quick reach", or you leaning "too far forward to grab wallet" gives impression you may have other thoughts, my gun will be drawn.
i'm sorry if i offend you. talk to my supervisor about how i hurt your feelings. in the end, we both go home without extra holes. wanna take me to court? hey, then there will be court precedent to answer this question. but in long run, we still go home without holes.

Just to review: you stop me for a traffic infraction. As you approach my window, with my hands in plain sight, I voluntarily hand you my LTCH along with my DL, proof of insurance and registration - and you see that my LTCH is unexpired on its face. I also voluntarily tell you that I have a legally-owned firearm in a holster on my hip. I am cooperative with you in every way, and I present no basis for a 'reasonable belief" that I am a danger to you - other than my voluntary disclosure of the firearm. Nor is there a basis for a "reasonable belief" that I am engaged in any criminal activity (other than the traffic infraction for which I was stopped).

You then require me to exit the vehicle - potentially at gunpoint. You physically search me for my firearm and disarm me. And I end up in handcuffs on the curb?

I completely understand and respect the need for officer safety. And I think your primary goal of us both going home without "extra holes" is commendable. But I also believe your course of action strongly supports those folks on this thread who, for fear of being mistreated by the police, disagree with my policy of voluntarily disclosing the presence of a firearm in the vehicle and handing the officer my LTCH without being asked.

And if you haven't done so already, I respectfully encourage you to read the Richardson and Washington cases referenced earlier in this thread. You'll see these cases don't talk much about "hurt feelings." They each talk about the illegal actions of a police officer after being presented with a LTCH that is valid on its face - actions that violated the Constitutional rights of Indiana gun owners.

 

[INGunGuy]

i find it simple- put yourself in the officer's shoes...
you ask the person you stop if s/he has a firearm. "yes"
where is your firearm located? "on my hip"
WHAT DO YOU DO?
my reaction- "step out of the car, hands behind your back"
my reasoning- where are you going to grab your license from? typically your back pocket. ... where is your gun? beside your license. so where do i see you reaching? your hip/back pocket area. how do i know what you are reaching for?
my reaction- cuff you, take firearm, place it on MY vehicle (in front of where i will run license AND LTCH), and sit you on the curb still handcuffed. call for backup. when backup up arrives, i will have already called for status of LTCH. if it comes back valid, the other officer will uncuff you. after license checks out and paperwork is done, your firearm will be placed in your back seat, and you will be allowed to return to car. with paperwork and be on your way.

if your original response to "where is it located" is "underseat/backseat", you will be removed from vehicle and all further conversations will be done outside the car (uncuffed). if response is "in trunk", you can stay in your car.
so to give my view of "surrendering your weapon". it is for my safety and yours. i don't know you. i don't know where you are reaching, and i don't know what is there. if you say you have a weapon, and i feel that a "quick reach", or you leaning "too far forward to grab wallet" gives impression you may have other thoughts, my gun will be drawn.
i'm sorry if i offend you. talk to my supervisor about how i hurt your feelings. in the end, we both go home without extra holes. wanna take me to court? hey, then there will be court precedent to answer this question. but in long run, we still go home without holes.

You sir need to find another line of work. It sounds to me like law enforcement is not for you. You seem to scared of the general public to interract professionaly.

Just my 2 cents...

INGunGuy

 

[Hornett]

How do I know you are a REAL police officer?
This question has not really been addressed and it is the basis for me not informing.
People have been robbed and women raped by criminals posing as police officers.
On a routine traffic stop, I don't have time to call 911 and verify that you are a real police officer.
I am simply taking a chance.
We tell our kids if they get pulled over, DO NOT STOP in a secluded area.
Drive slowly and respectfully to a well lighted and crowded spot if it's possible.
Why do I tell them that?
Fake police officers.

Chicken 89:
Once I have produced a valid LTCH and you detain me, you have broken the law and trampled on my 2nd and 4th amendment rights.
As others have said, find another line of work.
You're not good at this one.

I know the officers want to go home safe.
I appreciate that and I want to see that too.
BUT, guess who else wants to go home safe?
Me!
I think that surrendering my gun to a total stranger (LEO or not) is not a good idea.
That's why I have decided not to tell.
Even though I understand what GunLawyer is saying, it's not worth the risk IMHO.

 

[GuyRelford]

Even though I understand what GunLawyer is saying, it's not worth the risk IMHO.

Hey, based on chicken89's post, I'm beginning to think that your policy is a lot smarter than mine. (I'm the guy who's gonna be sitting on the curb in handcuffs - as my friends and neighbors drive by, wondering what heinous crime I've committed.)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

(I'm the guy who's gonna be sitting on the curb in handcuffs - as my friends and neighbors drive by, wondering what heinous crime I've committed.)

The crime of . . . Exercising Your Civil Rights, subject to Law Enforcement Heckler's Veto???

That learn ya to be volunteering information. Chatterbox.

Run silent, run deep, run free.

/s/ the guy who almost got a hole added to him in Broad Ripple

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

Hey, based on chicken89's post, I'm beginning to think that your policy is a lot smarter than mine. (I'm the guy who's gonna be sitting on the curb in handcuffs - as my friends and neighbors drive by, wondering what heinous crime I've committed.)

Me too! Since he'll ask if I have any firearms and won't like the answer. I almost always carry on my person in or out of the car. I'm sorry to say it sounds to me like chicken is on of those LEOs that are in it for the power trip.

 

[GuyRelford]

Me too! Since he'll ask if I have any firearms and won't like the answer.

There's always room for you on my curb. (And I know a really good lawyer!)

 

[chicken89]

Just to review: you stop me for a traffic infraction. As you approach my window, with my hands in plain sight, I voluntarily hand you my LTCH along with my DL, proof of insurance and registration (in my original post, there was nothing in your hands)- and you see that my LTCH is unexpired on its face. I also voluntarily tell you that I have a legally-owned firearm in a holster on my hip. I am cooperative with you in every way, and I present no basis for a 'reasonable belief" that I am a danger to you - other than my voluntary disclosure of the firearm. Nor is there a basis for a "reasonable belief" that I am engaged in any criminal activity (other than the traffic infraction for which I was stopped).

You then require me to exit the vehicle - potentially at gunpoint (since this story has changed from my original post, see below). You physically search me for my firearm and disarm me. And I end up in handcuffs on the curb?

I completely understand and respect the need for officer safety. And I think your primary goal of us both going home without "extra holes" is commendable. But I also believe your course of action strongly supports those folks on this thread who, for fear of being mistreated by the police, disagree with my policy of voluntarily disclosing the presence of a firearm in the vehicle and handing the officer my LTCH without being asked.

And if you haven't done so already, I respectfully encourage you to read the Richardson and Washington cases referenced earlier in this thread. You'll see these cases don't talk much about "hurt feelings." They each talk about the illegal actions of a police officer after being presented with a LTCH that is valid on its face - actions that violated the Constitutional rights of Indiana gun owners.

i understand this quote to be seeking information, not accusatory. so i shall respond to be informative, without accusations
if i approach a vehicle that already has the driver's license and registration in the driver's hand, there is no need to ask about a firearm, since the driver should not be making movements for either (DL or firearm). so the driver will be left in the car. i do not need to validate the LTCH if the driver does not state they have a firearm on their person. so, if i do not know that you have a firearm on your person, there is no need to remove you from the vehicle.
if you inform me that you do have a firearm, but have your DL and registration already in your hand, you will be informed to stay in your vehicle until i return. (as you will not be reaching for anything).
the reasoning for me asking you out of the vehicle is that you will be reaching for the same area as your firearm. this is my only reason to remove you from the vehicle- i can observe the location of your firearm, and your motions.
after reading through comments after mine, the assumption is that the LTCH is presented BEFORE removed from vehicle. My story dealt with it presented AFTER being removed from the vehicle.

 

[Roadie]

cough*backpedaling*cough

 

[Pocketman]

This subject keeps coming up and there are never clear cut answers. Disclose or not? Hand over the weapon or have the officer take it? The root of the question seems to always focus on a single factor - the officer's reaction. Despite what some may think, LEOs are subject to the emotions and the shortcomings of being human. Given the lack of clear cut procedure and/or law to regulate such circumstances, we're subject to the luck of the draw (literally). What's being practiced under the guise of officer safety is often creating a potentially unsafe situation. The kicker is, there being little or no consequence to an officer inappropriately confiscating a legally possessed weapon and/or abusing his exemption concerning pointing their firearm "within the scope" of doing their duties.

In regard to Hornett's question "How do I know you are a REAL police officer?" Someone else can jump in here, but generally speaking if the person is in uniform and/or a marked car, the courts frown on a person not complying with the officer.

 

[GuyRelford]

i understand this quote to be seeking information, not accusatory. so i shall respond to be informative, without accusations
if i approach a vehicle that already has the driver's license and registration in the driver's hand, there is no need to ask about a firearm, since the driver should not be making movements for either (DL or firearm). so the driver will be left in the car. i do not need to validate the LTCH if the driver does not state they have a firearm on their person. so, if i do not know that you have a firearm on your person, there is no need to remove you from the vehicle.
if you inform me that you do have a firearm, but have your DL and registration already in your hand, you will be informed to stay in your vehicle until i return. (as you will not be reaching for anything).
the reasoning for me asking you out of the vehicle is that you will be reaching for the same area as your firearm. this is my only reason to remove you from the vehicle- i can observe the location of your firearm, and your motions.
after reading through comments after mine, the assumption is that the LTCH is presented BEFORE removed from vehicle. My story dealt with it presented AFTER being removed from the vehicle.

I understand the distinction and appreciate your clarification. Let me ask you a sincere question: if you were a private citizen with a valid LTCH and a concealed firearm in a holster on your hip, would you voluntarily inform a LEO of the presence of the firearm during a traffic stop, realizing that you might end up in handcuffs on the curb? Or, knowing that you had no intention of ever touching the firearm during the stop, would you just keep your hands on the wheel and your mouth shut - and wait to be sent on your way?

 

[Hornett]

In regard to Hornett's question "How do I know you are a REAL police officer?" Someone else can jump in here, but generally speaking if the person is in uniform and/or a marked car, the courts frown on a person not complying with the officer.

I am not promoting non compliance.
Just not informing or volunteering anything.
To a small population of LEOs and jurisdictions anyone carrying a handgun is to be treated like a criminal.
It's sad and I know most LEOs aren't that way.

The lesson here, boys and girls, is:

Don't keep your registration in the same place as your handgun!
And Keep your mouth shut.


This bugs me a bit, because I realize that LEOs want to know, and they don't like surprises.
But because of the possibility of be being detained, searched, and personal belongings confiscated, over something perfectly legal, I will not inform.
Really, it doesn't have to be like this, but there are no options that I can see.
I might be pulled over by Chicken89 at my next traffic stop.

 

[GuyRelford]

"How do I know you are a REAL police officer?"

That's easy. I just flee at a high rate of speed. If 37 more units and a helicopter join the high speed chase, I've confirmed that it's a real police officer. Problem solved!!

 

[Hornett]

Well, one problem is solved....